|
Pre-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation Please use this forum to discuss Military and Naval Aviation before the Second World War. |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Oesau's victories in Spain
Hello all
I have a question that will seem STRANGE to some,of the Oesau "abschusse"in Spain! What is the exact number of these? 9 (Ring/Ries) but with 2 (20/07/38 and 27/07/38) not approved? 10(David Johnston in the new book:German eagles in Spanish Skies....GREAT BOOK with pictures!"whaou" and discovery (for me) of Bf.109 A!!...credited with "abschusse". 6 (according to the list established by Georg Fleischmann (KIA on 30/04/40)....a concerned witness of the time? The Fleischmann's list puts some doubts in doubt. Michel |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
Would be grateful for any corrections and additions:
15.7.38 I-15 ("Curtiss") Day's losses include Felipe Cirujeda Esteve of 1a Esc, Grupo 26; Jose Redondo of 1a Esc apparently by collision with Bf109; one I-15 lost to a collision with an I-16 (pilot of I-16 named Pastor) 17.7.38 I-15 ("Curtiss") 2a Esc, Grupo 26 lost Felipe Barroso Calvo KIA (exploded in mid-air, attributed to Moelders), 2 other pilots baled out WIA 18.7.38 I-16 "Rata" Alcublas area, Spain Nationalist forces claimed 5 or 6 I-16s and 5 I-15s this date. Actual losses were 3 I-16s and 2 I-15s. The I-16s lost include those of Vicente Yuste and pilot Belmonte (both 3a Esc and KIA) plus Andres Fierro baled out safely. I-15 losses include Felipe Alonso Tebar (Tobar?) fate not listed and Juan Diaz Labella KIA. Grigorii Sergeevich Nevgerskii also KIA this date against CR-32s and Bf109s 20.7.38 I-15 ("Curtiss") Grupo 26 and other units. From 17.7.38 to 23.7.38 there were nine I-16s lost and seven I-15s 27.7.38 SB-2 Grupo 12 or Grupo 24 15.8.38 I-15 ("Curtiss") Tivisa Grupo 26. Two losses this date so likely a legitimate victory. Includes CM-201 of 3a Esc, Eduardo Fernandez Prada shot down in flames (other claim by Gustav Kuell) |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
Hi Nick
According Georg Fleischmann 15/07/38 1 Curtis "Sagunto/Valencia 17/07/38 1 Curtis "Segorbe" 18/07/38 1 Curtis "Segorbe" 15/08/38 1 Curtis "Tivissa" 20/08/38 1 Rata "Venta de Camposines"! 15/10/38 1 Rata "Mola" 03/11/38 1 Rata "Capsanos"! Nothing about claims of 20/07/38 and 27/07/38 (Karl Ries/Hans Ring) Michel |
#4
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
Hello Michel,
Have you this recent mag: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=53330 Maybe your question is regarding this very issue, I have not yet read it and have no idea what is "real score" is, but I can have a look if you want. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
Quote:
Michel, Many thanks. Will update my database over the weekend |
#6
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
Hi,
only litle correction: 15/08/38 1 Curtis "Tivissa" in Catalan language in or Tivisa in Spanish language 03/11/38 1 Rata "Capsanos"! Capçanes in Catalan language or Capsanes in Spanish language maybe not helps but can you find the two versions... great threat! regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle." Dietrich Hrabak "The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....." Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first." Adolf Galland |
#7
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
Hi,
i can add some info, if need the sources only ask: 15.7.38 Grupo 26, *, losses were Felipe Cirujeda Esteve, 1ª esc. g-26 , i-15 by colision with i-16, Jose Redondo 1ª I-16 bail out after collision with Bf109 and Pastor I-16 collision bail out 17.7.38 Grupo 26, *, 3 I-15 lost Barroso atributed to Moelders, the other 2 pilots both bail out wounded 18.7.38 Grupo 21 or misidentification?. 5 claims of I-16 (3LC+ 2 CR.32 of as de Bastos (Ace of Clubs))+ 5 claims of I-15. Real losses were: 4(+1 forcelanded) i-16 +2 i-15 i-16 Vicente Yuste , 3ª esc. , KIA, lost in Sagunto area I-16 of ¿Hungarian Gregory S.? (Венгерский Григорий Сергеевич) also crashed in the mountains i-16 Belmonte, 3ª esc., KIA i-16 Andres Fierro , bail out , I-16 Gritsevets forcelanded in Utiel airfield by CR. 32s i-15 Felipe Alonso Tobar MIA i-15 Juan Diaz Labella, KIA i-16 Grigorii Sergeevich Vengerskii KIA in battle with CR.32s and Bf109s on 18 july 38 Sagunto-Valencia area 20.7.38 Grupo 26, *, from 17 to 23 of july 9 I-16s lost and 7 I-15s 27.7.38 Grupo 12 or Grupo 24 15.8.38 Grupo 26. Two losses this date so likely a legitimate victory (one of these CM-201 de Eduardo Fernández Prada 3ª escuadrilla shot down in flames) and one Chato (I-15) other prob was I-16 Mex pilot Sgt. Jaime Sirio, Sirio Martin Gonzalez or Jose Sirio martin but some sources says he died in combat 22 of july: 17 I-15 y 10 I-16 fight in Viver, a great group of fiats... Republicans lost two chatos and one I-16 only with Spanish pilots. Both pilots of the chatos bail out and the pilot of the I-16 was MIA... 20.8.38 Grupo 21, 4ª esc Moscas 15.10.38 3a, 4a, 5a and 6a Esc Grupo 21 all definitely in action this date, 3 losses (all pilots escaped by parachute). 3.11.38 3a Esc, 4a Esc, 5a Esc and 6a Esc Grupo 21 all definitely in action this date, at least 12 losses of I-16 this month for more than 22 claims http://www.elgrancapitan.org/foro/vi...hp?f=7&t=13111 part of the info by Nick Hector and other sources... regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle." Dietrich Hrabak "The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....." Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first." Adolf Galland |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
Thanks,if you can inform me about the article in ACE 10
Michel |
#9
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
15 July 1938 - Curtiss (I-15)
17 July 1938 - Curtiss (I-15) 18 July 1938 - Rata (I-16) 23 July 1938 - Rata (I-16) - Unconfirmed 15 August 1938 - Curtiss (I-15) 20 August 1938 - Rata (I-16) 15 October 1938 - ? 3 November 1938 - "YP-36" So 7 confirmed and one unconfirmed based on Walter Oesau's personnal diary and some Legion Condor papers. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
Hello,
Comparing Oesau's claims and russian archives we'v got for 9 claims, 7 of them confirmed from german side: 2 individual kills* 5 shared kills 2 unconfirmed claims (no republican losses at all) * for the moment, since we still do not have all italian or spanish francoist's claims. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Hannes Trautloft's Victories in Spain | Nokose | Pre-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation | 7 | 25th July 2013 14:17 |
List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories | Larry Hickey | Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces | 24 | 25th August 2011 23:03 |
Trying to corroborate Aleksandr Pokryshkin's aerial victories | DiegoZampini | Allied and Soviet Air Forces | 13 | 21st March 2011 12:07 |
Luftwaffe Aces Portfolio for sale | Dark12 | On Offer | 0 | 5th October 2010 05:17 |
Percentage of Verifiable Victories of Various Aces –Updates & Recommendations | Rob Romero | Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces | 25 | 9th March 2010 02:39 |