Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 9th June 2015, 18:19
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,427
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
31st FG losses on 9 June 1943

Hello,

I have found very confusing data on my various sources about the losses of the 31st FG on 9 June 1943. My sources are: the books "Spiftires over Sicily" and "Beyond Courage", the Squadron signal book about the 31st FG and the Osprey book about 53° Stormo.

Two pilots were shot down this day, 1st Lt McMann in the morning and 1st LT Gordon Rich in the afternoon.

Sources 1, 2 and 4 all said that McMann was rescued, but the ABMC database show a 1st Lt Stanley McMann of 308th FS, 31st FG that is commemorated as missing since 9 June 1943.

On the other hand the rescue of Rich by a RAF Walrus is described in Beyond Courage. It took place on the 11th, and this book says the shot down and rescue took place on the 11th, while all other sources said he was shot down on the 9th, the Signal book adding he returned two days later. So maybe he spent two days in his dinghy, but the precise description of the event in the book is in conflict with this, saying he spend several hours floating in his Mae West.

By the way, none of the serials of the Spitfire is known. And there is no MACR for McMann, but for this area and time period, it is not surprising.

I have not the book "In a now forgotten sky" that might have more details.

So my questions are:
1) can someone confirm if McMann was killed or not this day ?
2) can someone confirm the date when Gordon Rich was shot down ? And when he was rescued ?
3) I would like to have the serials of the Spitfires they flew, but I have no big hope

Thanks in advance, best regards
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 9th June 2015, 20:25
researcher111's Avatar
researcher111 researcher111 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 940
researcher111 will become famous soon enough
Re: 31st FG losses on 9 June 1943

In a Now Forgotten Sky doesn't list any McMann as a combat loss at the date you mentioned , neither any clear details on combat activities between June 6 to June 11 , 1943

PS: Udf was aware about the pages u've mentioned though combat dates not chronologically ordered

Last edited by researcher111; 10th June 2015 at 06:58.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 9th June 2015, 21:05
udf_00's Avatar
udf_00 udf_00 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 650
udf_00 is on a distinguished road
Re: 31st FG losses on 9 June 1943

"In a now forgotten sky" Pp 93-94
9 JUN 1943, Pantelleria.
Lt McMann was returning to Korba (falling oil pressure), spent 6 hours in the water, rescued before the day's end.
Lt Rich had to bail out just north of Pantelleria and was rescued, Lt Mosby flying in the Walrus to direct the pilot to Rich's dinghy.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 9th June 2015, 22:09
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 3,009
Alex Smart is on a distinguished road
Re: 31st FG losses on 9 June 1943

Hello Laurent,
From what I have.
June 1943
7-6-43 - a/c lost Korbe Raid - pilot/ fate not known.
7-6-43 - 309 Sqn - 1Lt. R.M. Lupton jr a/c damaged.
9-6-43 - 308 Sqn - a/c shot down, 1Lt. McCann (McMann ?) ditched, returned.
9-6-43 - a/c ? - Lt. Rich bailed returned.
10-6-43 - 307 Sqn - a/c shot down by P-40 of 99 FS, 1Lt. G.V.Gooding KIA.
11-6-43 - 308 Sqn - 1Lt. M.P. Smith jr, Killed.
11-6-43 - a/c ? - Lt. Rich - POW.
26-6-43 - a/c ? - lost en route Gozo, pilot ?/fate ?
30-6-43 - ER165 - bounced onto EF632, Lt. G.B. Stevens jr ok, 1Lt. E.L Fardella injured,2 RAF fitters killed and two others injured.
30-6-43 - ES182 - Lt. J.B. Stevens jr KIA in sea off Gozo, MACR 1239(FS182).

Alex
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10th June 2015, 12:13
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,427
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: 31st FG losses on 9 June 1943

Thanks for your replies.

So it seems that McMann survived, according to all published books.

As for Rich, apparently he was shot down on the 9th (Alex, you have him twice on 9th and 11th, with a POW status for the second date: I can't find him in the US POW database available online).
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10th June 2015, 12:48
RSwank RSwank is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bloomington, IN USA
Posts: 761
RSwank is on a distinguished road
Re: 31st FG losses on 9 June 1943

Laurent,

I really don't think McMann survived. If you look at the official documents:
He is currently listed on the "official" MIA list:

http://www.dpaa.mil/OurMissing/World...spx?br=aaf&a=m

He is listed as MIA on the ABM website:
http://www.abmc.gov/search-abmc-buri...5#.VXgTrlYViko

He is listed with a FOD (finding of death) on the official NARA list for Colorado:

http://media.nara.gov/media/images/28/26/28-2577a.gif

http://warmemorial.us/mediawiki3/ind...%281LT%29_WWII

As for Rich, as you note there is no POW record for him. Here is his obit:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...ch.html?pg=all

It seems to say he was shot down once and spent a short time in the water. No mention of a date when that happened, but note there is no mention of being a POW which these obits usually do, if it happened.

It may be that one of the first book authors got it wrong regarding McMann and the other authors just followed his "lead". It is all rather confusing, but I do think the official documents are more likely to be correct.

Last edited by RSwank; 10th June 2015 at 13:41.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 13th June 2015, 14:58
udf_00's Avatar
udf_00 udf_00 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 650
udf_00 is on a distinguished road
Re: 31st FG losses on 9 June 1943

"In a now forgotten sky" p.130
There is a picture of a Lt. captioned :
"Lt. Gordon Rich, Pomigliano, Italy, Oct. 1943. In June Lt. Rich ditched off Pantelleria and was rescued by an RAF Walrus."
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sicily, June 1943 Daniele Gatti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 3 10th October 2012 19:09
57th FG Losses on April 18,1943 kaki3152 Allied and Soviet Air Forces 1 29th September 2009 08:36
VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses. Evgeny Velichko Allied and Soviet Air Forces 78 18th August 2009 15:16
JG2 Losses June 26, 1943 brianx13 Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 4 25th January 2008 14:24
Losses of III/JG2 January 1943 to October 1943 . infos needs heinz Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 12th February 2005 18:56


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net