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  #31  
Old 5th May 2006, 22:55
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Hi, guys.

I seem too have a few additional losses for this date.

Your listing has 21, I have 39 losses listed for 109's on this date.

Are the additional ones of interest or have you already looked at them and counted them out of the ones that are possible for this action?

Regards,
Andreas
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  #32  
Old 5th May 2006, 23:07
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Hi Andreas, 21 is all I could find, unfortunately, as my records are far from complete. Today however the veteran made a comment which most likely confirms the suspicions all people who thought it was a Dora all along! I showed him pictures of the 109 wing gunpods and he said that the guns were firing from about 1/5th out from the wingroot. Now that sounds a hell of a lot like a Dora now!

Would you be able to share all known Dora losses on this date with me? All I have is:

Fw 190 D-9, Werkenr. 210905, II/JG 301, crashed near Grieben after air combat. Grieben is north of Magdeburg, so the location matches perfectly.
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  #33  
Old 6th May 2006, 00:25
Jean-Yves Lorant Jean-Yves Lorant is offline
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Hi Skyraider3D

Bert Wendler dont said me anything more. He was flying some 100 m behind his Schwarmführer (Gärtner) and saw the Messerschmitt enter into a dive and explode a few seconds later. A typical fuselage tank explosion. The 109 was transformed into flying remains.
The "birdcage cockpit canopy" seems really impossible at this period of the war. The whole I./JG 300 was flying Bf 109 with DB 605 AS and D engines - an all the planes were fitted with Erla "Vollsichthauben".

All the best from France - Jean-Yves
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  #34  
Old 6th May 2006, 00:40
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Jean-Yves, I showed Bill Lyons a picture of the Erla Haube and he considered this a bird-cage canopy too. I guess he simply meant a canopy with framing over the top, opposed to the all-round vision bubbles of the American P-51 and P-47. The Dora canopy falls in the "bird-cage" category too I assume
Thanks for the additional info, by the way. Definitely not Gärtner then, that's clear...
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  #35  
Old 6th May 2006, 01:18
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Well, the only other Dora I have for this date which would fit the description is also a II./J.G.301 aircraft.

The pilot was Helmut Brenner. and the question is what aircraft he flew, as the loss is recorded twice in the GenQu6Abt documents, once with WNr 210909, and once with WNr 211909.

I guess someone will come up with the NVM data, so we can get this one correct?

A Dora from JG 6 was also damaged in a landing accident on this date.

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Andreas
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  #36  
Old 6th May 2006, 02:24
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Thanks Andreas!
Do you have more info about this loss you mentioned? Was the pilot killed in action? What was the crash location? And do you know the fuselage code for this machine?
Thanks in advance!
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  #37  
Old 6th May 2006, 10:24
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyraider3D
I guess he simply meant a canopy with framing over the top, opposed to the all-round vision bubbles of the American P-51 and P-47. The Dora canopy falls in the "bird-cage" category too I assume
Thanks for the additional info, by the way.
If he considers a Dora canopy to be a birdcage, he'd consider any germany fighter canopy as a birdcage, which doesn't narrow down the search. The ERLA haube has more framing than either blown or original Fw canopies.

IMHO you are only left with the wing guns as indicators.

PS. sorry for my lack of reaction wrt PM!!

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  #38  
Old 6th May 2006, 11:02
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Hi. The location for the loss of Brenner was given as unbekannt, and I haven't got the NVM, so the circumstances are unknown to me.

I guess the people behind the JG 300-series books should have more on this.

Regards,
Andreas
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  #39  
Old 6th May 2006, 13:25
petewenman petewenman is offline
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Guys hi

Following this thread with interest. I don't have any info to add, but I love
the reserach aspect.

If nothing else Ronnie's conversations with Bill Lyons really illustrate the difference between combat and a passing interest.

Bill shot down a plane, but has very little recollection of the detail of the event (and who can blame him he was busy staying alive).

I would suspect that most kill identification came from the gun camera stills rather than the pilots debrief.

Pete
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  #40  
Old 6th May 2006, 22:27
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Pete, you would be surprised the kind of details Bill Lyons remembers. I think the case is that many pilots simply distinguished no more than two piston engined fighters. Anything with a radial engine was a Focke-Wulf and anything with an inline engine was a Messerschmitt
On 18 March 1945 the 359th FG found out the hard way that this way of identification was rather limited when they shot down a number of Yak-9s ("Me 109s") and La-5FNs ("Fw 190s"). But that's a different story altogether


Andreas, thanks. I assume you don't have the Kennzeichen for this second Dora then?
Below if a list of all Fw 190 claims in the area for that day. Could you possibly counter this list with all Fw 190 losses (both A and D). It would be good to see how these claims match up.
In bold the claims which are close to Bill Lyon's location.

355th FG/354th FS - Capt J E Duffy - 1x Fw 190 destroyed - SW of Berlin
355th FG/357th FS - Lt E P Ludeke - 1x Fw 190 destroyed - Brandenburg (Ludeke was Lyon's flight leader)
479th FG/434th FS - Capt G W Gleason - 1x Fw 190 destroyed - SE of Magdeburg (he also got an Me 109)
479th FG/434th FS - Lt R D Creighton - 1x Fw 190 probable - SE of Magdeburg (he also destroyed an Me 109)
479th FG/435th FS - Maj H H Jordan - 1x Fw 190 destroyed - W of Brandenburg
479th FG/435th FS - Cap N R Benoit - 1x Fw 190 destroyed - SW of Brandenburg

The Fw 190 losses we have thusfar:

Fw 190 D-9 - 6/JG 301 - Obfw Max Sulzgruber - 210905 - Red 5 - Grieben (= N of Magdeburg)
Fw 190 D-9 - II/JG 301 - Helmut Brenner (KIA) - 210909 or 211909 - Kennzeichen unknown - location unknown
Fw 190 A-9 - 8/JG 301 - Lt Karl-Heinz Müller (KIA) - 207202 - Blue 5 - location unknown



This is premature, I know, but if we go by the assumption that JG 301 fought in the same area (roughly north of Magdeburg) and two of their number were shot down by the 435th FS then the third could be Lyon's. Brenner's Dora is the most likely possibility, as Lyons victim was KIA. Ludeke (Lyon's flight leader) Fw 190 was scored further east, while all 434th FS claims seem to be in the Belzig area where lots of JG 300 Me 109s crashed. To be sure, Ludeke did not participate in Lyon's air battle but apparently took part in a bigger scrap further to the east.


Thanks again all, both on-board and off-board. I feel we might just be able to crack this egg
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