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  #1  
Old 10th November 2006, 23:34
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Ace vs. Ace

Since my Verifiable Victories project came a cropper. Let me ask a less demanding question.
What Ace vs. Ace encounters are you aware of:

Here are a few I can think of off the top of my head:

WWI
Lothar Von Richthofen (40) vs. Albert Ball (44) –head on passes –Lothar crash landed near Balls wreck –Ball KIA in controversial circumstances –probably damage/Thunder cloud windsheer/Vertigo/Pilot Error combo. –Germans sealed the deal in giving Lothar credit for the victory by putting a few (more?) holes in Balls fuselage –Ball crushed –no battle wounds.

WWII
Sailor Malan (32) vs. Werner Mölders (115) –Mölders WIA BoB
Helmut Wick (56) vs. John Dundas (13) vs. Rudolf Pflanz (52) BoB -28 Nov 40
Hans-Ulrich Rudel (9 Aircraft & 519 Tanks) vs. Col. Lev Shestakov (26) – Mar 44 Shestakov was KIA shooting at Rudel in Ground level pursuit –he was either shot down by Rudel’s gunner or got caught the Ju-87’s wash and stalled into ground.


Thanx,

Rob Romero
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Old 10th November 2006, 23:41
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Ace vs. Ace+

Since my Verifiable Victories project came a cropper. Let me ask a less demanding question.
What Ace vs. Ace encounters are you aware of:

Here are a few I can think of off the top of my head

WWI
Lothar Von Richthofen (40) vs. Albert Ball (44) –head on passes –Lothar crash landed near Balls wreck –Ball KIA in controversial circumstances –probably damage/Thunder cloud windsheer/Vertigo/Pilot Error combo. –Germans sealed the deal in giving Lothar credit for the victory by putting a few (more?) holes in Balls fuselage –Ball crushed –no battle wounds.

WWII
Sailor Malan (32) vs. Werner Mölders (115) –Mölders WIA BoB -28 Jul 40
Helmut Wick (56) KIA vs. John Dundas (13) KIA vs. Rudolf Pflanz (52) BoB -28 Nov 40 –Wick was diving out of a fight and heading for home when he was bounced by Dundas who reported the victory over the air, just before getting clobbered by Pflanz who had observed Wick bailing out into the freezing English Channel.
Hans-Ulrich Rudel (9 Aircraft & 519 Tanks) vs. Col. Lev Shestakov (26) – Mar 44 Shestakov was KIA shooting at Rudel in Ground level pursuit –he was either shot down by Rudel’s gunner or got caught the Ju-87’s wash and stalled into ground.

Thanx,

Rob Romero
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  #3  
Old 11th November 2006, 00:55
Artur PK Artur PK is offline
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Re: Ace vs. Ace

There are no clear evidence that Mölders was shot down by Malan and Wick by Dundas. These are only speculations.

Here are Polish “trails”:

29.04.1942. W/Cdr Marian Pisarek (12-1-2) , Northolt Wing CO, was shot down and killed by Hptm. Joachim Müncheberg (135), G.Kdr II./JG 26.
09.05.1941. P/O Jan Zumbach (12 1/3-5-1 at war’s end) from 303. Squadron was shot down by Oblt. Wilhelm Stange (12), St.K. 8./JG 3. Zumbach bailed out without wounds.

On the other hand:

21.06.1941. Obstlt. Adolf Galland’s plane (104), G.Kdre JG 26, was PROBABLY hit by future Polish ace P/O Bolesław Drobiński (7-1 1/3-0 at war’s end) from 303. Squadron. Galland escaped unhurt (his Messerschmitt was 40% damaged).

Cheers,
Artur
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Old 11th November 2006, 01:19
VtwinVince VtwinVince is offline
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Re: Ace vs. Ace

Here's a couple more:

August 18, 1940 P\O Ken Lee of 501 RAF versus Oberleutnant Gerhard Schoepfel of JG 26

October 29, 1942 W\C J.H. Nicholls of 601 RAF versus Hauptmann Wolf-Dietrich Huy of JG 77

September 24, 1940 F\O Harold Bird-Wilson of 17 RAF versus Major Adolf Galland of JG 26 (Galland's 40th victory, for which he received the Oakleaves)
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  #5  
Old 11th November 2006, 02:28
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
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Re: Ace vs. Ace

For World War 1, Norman Franks did a book titled Who Downed the Aces in WW I, published in 1996 by Grub Street, and reprinted in the US in 1998 by Barnes & Noble.

Frank.
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  #6  
Old 1st February 2007, 23:23
dora9forever
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Re: Ace vs. Ace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artur PK View Post
There are no clear evidence that Mölders was shot down by Malan and Wick by Dundas. These are only speculations.

Here are Polish “trails”:

29.04.1942. W/Cdr Marian Pisarek (12-1-2) , Northolt Wing CO, was shot down and killed by Hptm. Joachim Müncheberg (135), G.Kdr II./JG 26.
09.05.1941. P/O Jan Zumbach (12 1/3-5-1 at war’s end) from 303. Squadron was shot down by Oblt. Wilhelm Stange (12), St.K. 8./JG 3. Zumbach bailed out without wounds.

On the other hand:

21.06.1941. Obstlt. Adolf Galland’s plane (104), G.Kdre JG 26, was PROBABLY hit by future Polish ace P/O Bolesław Drobiński (7-1 1/3-0 at war’s end) from 303. Squadron. Galland escaped unhurt (his Messerschmitt was 40% damaged).

Cheers,
Artur
moalders was hit by webster,from front on,,as ive been told,by a historion,
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  #7  
Old 1st February 2007, 23:47
Kurt Braatz Kurt Braatz is offline
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Re: Ace vs. Ace

Guenther Rall vs. Hub Zemke and Shortie Rankin, May 12, 1944, 12:20 hrs, Wetzlar area. Confirmed by all three. Zemke split-S'ed after Rall had shot away his wingman, whereas Rall fell victim to Rankin's No. 2. losing his thumb and being forced to bail out. Details: Guenther Rall's reminiscences, 'My Logbook', pp. 206. See www.twentyninesix.com

Kurt
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  #8  
Old 2nd February 2007, 03:49
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Evgeny Velichko Evgeny Velichko is offline
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Re: Ace vs. Ace



Polkovnik (Colonel) Lev Lvovich Shestakov participated in two wars: SCW and GPW, had more than 600 combat missions, more than 130 aerial combats, scored 29 victoryes + more than 45 - shared.

13.3.1944, near Davydkovtzy, Hmelnitzkaya region of Ukraina. La-7 of 19 IAP engaged large group of Ju87 without any escort. Shestakov shoy down one of Ju87, then he attacked another from very close distanse (short distance attack was his personnel taktick), and attacked Ju87 after hits EXPLODED.

La-7 of Col.Shestakov was so damaged that overturned and lost any control. He wasable to use his parashute, but altitude was too small and he died.

His body was founded only when snow melted, in May 1944.

So, how could Rudel kill him, if Ju87 EXPLODED into pieces? Where did You got that info, Rob Romero?

Another information for You:

5.05.1943 Guenther Rall shot down Kapitan Vadim Fadeev (HSU, 17 victories), from 16 GvIAP.

THIS fact was prooved on Russian Forum.
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  #9  
Old 2nd February 2007, 10:27
Kurt Braatz Kurt Braatz is offline
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Re: Ace vs. Ace

Didn' know that, Eugen, though I am Guenther's biographer. His flying log shows 2 missions on that day and two kills:

1. La-5, 10:09 hrs, SE Krimskaya (Gunther's No. 134 overall)
2. Airacobra, 12:09 hrs, E Krimskaya (No. 135)

Kind regards,
Kurt
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Old 2nd February 2007, 11:15
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Re: Ace vs. Ace

In Rudel's autobiography, Stuka Pilot, he discusses being pusued by a Russian Fighter at low level. The fighter crashed, wether shot down by his gunner, or caught in his turbulance in stall/turn. According to Rudel this caused a STRONG reaction on the Russian Radio frequency, and it was later determined that a top russian ace had been lost. This was further discussed here.

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/shesta/shesta.htm

Not a 100% indication, but suggestive.

Rob
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