MARSEILLE his last kill

[david Cotton]

Hello
I would not agree that it is impossible to gain air supiriority without altatude performance. The fighter needs to shoot down the ground attack aircraft and if they are lurking down at 500 feet, the fighter has to go down there to get em. I cant see much reason for soviets to get up really high, they had nothing up there.

Going back to Marseille, I have been looking for some second hand books on him or his exploits. Nothing doing im afreid. However, i did pick up a copy of The Forgotten aces which has a few pages on him. Unfortunatly nothing really new.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

It is a bighead in English.

I suspect that the English expression "a know-all" might capture the intended meaning better.

[NUPPOL]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Joachim_Marseille

[ahafan]

Originally Posted by NUPPOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Joachim_Marseille

P/O Turvey-
combat report by the german,
the last spitfire who was more a match, for over 10 miniutes i could not get a better firing position, my fuel was gettin low-red light came on.
I then flew into the sun, and he lost me? I fired then he went down on fire
at my base back , I was near exhustion sweatin''and shakin!!-
I could not even talk..
I said the Allies are gettin better every day..and just found One.
I just went to my bed..
from harlyfords book.Messerschmitt fighting history
sharon

[Felix C]

Is Marseille the German pilot referred to by British ace Johnnie Johnson when he describes a well known ace in North Africa who claimed (and was credited for) a/c of the type which were not shot down and the claims for one one day in particular which exceeded the losses for all causes on the day of the claim?

This is something JJ wrote postwar disputing the massive claims made by German aces and what he considered loose victory credits.

[ahafan]

Originally Posted by Felix C

Is Marseille the German pilot referred to by British ace Johnnie Johnson when he describes a well known ace in North Africa who claimed (and was credited for) a/c of the type which were not shot down and the claims for one one day in particular which exceeded the losses for all causes on the day of the claim?

This is something JJ wrote postwar disputing the massive claims made by German aces and what he considered loose victory credits.

Yes'' that's him''''but main thing his his score when he died was 150-
german Archives claim him with only comfirmed 109-kills.
but after he died the 7-1940 kills ,were given him-so 157
but it his very hard to confirm a plane shot down when there are just your wingman.whos tryin to count his scores....Wooden eye?

[Juha]

Originally Posted by Felix C

Is Marseille the German pilot referred to by British ace Johnnie Johnson when he describes a well known ace in North Africa who claimed (and was credited for) a/c of the type which were not shot down and the claims for one one day in particular which exceeded the losses for all causes on the day of the claim?

This is something JJ wrote postwar disputing the massive claims made by German aces and what he considered loose victory credits.

So JJ wrote but he forgot that there were also SAAF losses, he had counted only the losses of the RAF units, IIRC in later editions JJ admitted his error.

IMHO usually Marseille was fairly accurate claimer IIRC only his very late claims were more inaccurate.

Juha

Juha

[Felix C]

^^^Thanks I read what JJ wrote decades ago and carried that nugget as truth until just now. Thank you again.

[David N]

Originally Posted by Juha

So JJ wrote but he forgot that there were also SAAF losses, he had counted only the losses of the RAF units, IIRC in later editions JJ admitted his error.

IMHO usually Marseille was fairly accurate claimer IIRC only his very late claims were more inaccurate.

Juha

Juha

Yes, after his 17 claim day on September 1, 1942, Marseille overclaimed somewhat. Christopher Shores, in his 1983 book, "Air Aces," wrote on page 83:

"On 1 September, in three sorties, he claimed an incredible 17 victories-16 of them claimed as Curtiss fighters and one a Spitfire (research shows that he actually got at least 12, with others damaged)."

In "Fighters Over The Desert," Shores wrote that two-thirds to three-fourths of Marseille's claims crashed or crash-landed.

[John Beaman]

Well, Marseille's claims have always been controversial. Ignoring that ALL sides in WWII over claimed, I recall an old article in RAF Flying Review (maybe by Shores, et al) that said of the 17 claims on 1 Sep 42 "only" 12 could be verified. Well, that's still a pretty amazing accomplishment. Any Allied aces have 12 in one day?

As for Johnny Johnson, I seem to recall he never believed Priller's claims of 101 on the western front, but then later verified them.

As I said, everyone over claimed. I would ask this though: if a plane makes it back to base and is 75-90% damaged (crash-landings for ex.), it was not listed by anyone as a "loss". In my mind it is a loss as the plan is out of action for weeks/months. It is a loss as far as aerial combat for a period. And, that's what counts: how many plans can you put up today?