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  #1  
Old 18th May 2007, 18:55
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6

Hello all friends and members! I am one more time asking help to understand and research the combat that claimed Oblt Werner Uhlig, shot down on 17th September 1944 - as previously answered by very kind friends of the Forum.

I have been looking at my "small" archives and this is what I found ( below ). Yes, I did not have a lot of information about the HOUR / PLACES of combat of USAF and RAF fighters for that day...Could someone help me?

KNOWN FACTS: 17 SEPTEMBER 1944
USAF LOSSES ( KNOWN UP TO NOW )
Please, I would like to know the hour and place of these losses, if possible

4 F.G.
Lt. Clifford E. Holske ( POW ) – P51D serial 44-14054, WD-I ( 335th FS )

361FG
Lt Woodrow W. Glover ( KIA ) – P51B “Mary Jane” serial 42-106944, E9-A

78FG
Capt. Donald C. Hart ( Returned ) – P47D “Vee Gaille III”, serial 42-26330, MX-H

364FG
Lt Harry Johnson Jr. ( KIA ) – P51D “Dosey Doates”, serial 44-13866, N2-V
Lt Douglas R Drysdale ( Evaded ) – P51D “Lovin´Aline” serial 44-14025, 5E-T

359FG
Lt Harold R. Burt ( KIA ) –P51C serial 42-103785, IV-K

353FG
Lt Robert N. Greeve ( KIA ) – P47D “Patricia Baby”, serial 42-75815, YJ-E


LUFTWAFFE LOSSES ( IDEM )
JG 26
( JG 26 claimed a total of 7 P-51 shot down that day on two separate missions! First mission apparently from III/JG 26. Claims between 14:40hs-14:58hs. Second mission apparently by II/JG 26. They claimed 3 Spitfires and 3 P-51 between 17:51 and 18:08hs )

Uffz Helmut Gross ( KIA ) .8/JG 26 – Hoxfeld/Borken by P51
Uffz Johann Holzleitner ( KIA ) .8/JG 26 – Bocholt by P51
Maj. Klaus Mietusch ( KIA ) OC III/JG 26 – Rath/Aldekerk by P51 ( It seems that he was shot down by1/Lt William R. Beyer of 376th FS of 361st FG )

Uffz Artur Neumann .4/JG 26 at Kleve by Spitfires RAF
( apparently on another mission or Area ) – some clues about the time and which RAF Squadrons II/JG 26 met that day?

JG 6
( claimed 2 P-51 shot down near Emmerich-Doesburg and Helmond between 16:35 and 17:00hs )

Oblt Werner Uhlig .5/JG 6 shot near Koln, patrol Kleve/Nijmegen
Shot down by Spitfires of RAF or P-51 from USAF?

Any information on the RAF and USAF side ( hour / place ) would be very nice. Up to now I saw that only the above mentioned 8 AF Squadrons suffered losses that day...

Glad as ever

Adriano
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Old 19th May 2007, 21:19
karl lusink karl lusink is offline
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Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6

hello
4 FG
1/Lt Clifford F Holske Jr crashed at Vardingholt Germany, Holske KIA
time approx. 14.40h Holske reburried in USA
361 FG
1/Lt Woodrow W Glover crashed at Grubbenvorst, Holland 15.30 h
shot down by railway Flak, KIA Ardennes:C-2-7
364 FG
Lt Harry Johnson Jr according to my information MIA (south of Arnhem)
1/Lt Douglas R. Drysdale, hit by Flak, bailed out South of Mill(Evaded)
359 FG a/c crashed at St Hubert, Holland, 12.50h
2/Lt Harold R Burt
engine overheat, W of Antwerp, Polder St Anne
353 FG
2/Lt Robert N Greene, crashed near Wekerom/Lunteren, Holland KIA
Ardennes-22-12 time 12.45 h
best wishes!
Karl Lusink
ARGA
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Old 19th May 2007, 21:24
karl lusink karl lusink is offline
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Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6

sorry some things went wrong!
a/c crashed at St Hubert. Holland, 12.50h = a/c of Drysdale!
Robert N Greene buried in Ardennes: D-22-12

Karl Lusink
ARGA
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Old 20th May 2007, 15:24
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6

Karl thanks a lot for the information. It will hep quite a lot to match the Luftwaffe claims and the USAF losses. But, may I ask you IF there were other casualties or if those posted there are the only ones recorded by the 8th AF?
Glad for your precious help!

Adriano
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Old 20th May 2007, 15:31
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Franek Grabowski
Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6

I was always intrigued by a story described in One Bridge Too Far - a US fighter crash landed nearby airborne troops, and its pilot just took a carbine to finish the Flak position which had just downed him.
Any clue or is it another fairy tale?
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Old 21st May 2007, 13:57
Boomerang Boomerang is offline
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Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6

Hello Adriano:

Note that the USAAF Chronology site lists US fighter losses for 17 Sept 1944 in support of MARKET GARDEN as 6 P47s and 7 P 51s (plus 3 and 2 respectively damaged beyond repair):

http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/wwii...ml/Sep.44.html

As the fighters were assigned to attack flak positions and other ground targets, it seems reasonable to assume a number of the above losses were due to ground fire.

Anyway, the above indicates the total number of USAAF fighter losses that need to be accounted for.

Good luck.

Don
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  #7  
Old 22nd May 2007, 01:04
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6

Hello Boomerang!
Thanks a lot for this site and for helping on the thread! I will check the information and make my cross-checking to find what, who and where - the main questions of "new journalism"...
Will soon be posting more news about the claims and losses...Thanks again and have a nice week!

Adriano
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Old 24th May 2007, 22:30
karl lusink karl lusink is offline
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Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner View Post
Karl thanks a lot for the information. It will hep quite a lot to match the Luftwaffe claims and the USAF losses. But, may I ask you IF there were other casualties or if those posted there are the only ones recorded by the 8th AF?
Glad for your precious help!

Adriano
There were more casualties:
4 FG
2/Lt Nicolas W Vozzy (KIA) crashed at Hoxfeld, Germany, 14.35 h
shot down by Fw 190 - Ardennes B-38-15
56 FG
Lt Edward M Albright Jr (KIA)
hit by Flak nr Zoelen, Holland. buried in USA
356 FG
1/Lt Howell L Broxton (evaded)
hit by Flak , bellied in nr Milsbeek, Holland. 12.10h
F/O John P Tucker (KIA)
crashed nr Elst, Holland, recovered after the war: Luxembourg: G-5-3
Capt Westwood H Fletcher
hit by Flak,bellied in SE of Elst, Evaded.
479 FG
Capt George K Sykes(evaded)
hit by Flak, force landed in a field west of Ede, Holland. 12.45 h

Cheers
Karl
ARGA
www.arga-nl.nl
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  #9  
Old 26th May 2007, 15:49
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6

Karl,
Thank you for adding those losses to my overall knowledge. I checked a lot of FG histories and think that passed without noticing those losses! Thanks a lot! The loss of Lt Vozzy of 4th FG only confirms my "guess" on the 3 main combats that day, although I did not found yet the victor of Oblt Werner Uhlig of .5/ JG 6. But thanks a lot for helping me and adding to my knowledge.
Yours sincere and friendly
Adriano
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