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  #21  
Old 11th June 2017, 14:47
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Re: War Over The Steppes

Obviously you are better infomed and know everything better , my feedback is therefore superfluous
  #22  
Old 11th June 2017, 15:18
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: War Over The Steppes

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Mikhail Timin (I'm sure you have read his studies) told me that Kopets certainly shot himself before 17:30 22 June, most probably about 17:00.

Documents which you can see on OBD or Pamyat Naroda websites with dates 23.Jul or even 25.Jul were written after a long time and are incorrect.

Best regards,
Andrey
Thanks for this info Andrehy, but we have a big trobule with this case - Kopets. I can not agree with Mikhail, with whom I cooperate a few years ago and support him too in his reaserches (some my photos and some info too).

This is very strange and mystery case. In fact after 5 p.m. on 22.06.1941 I can agree that he was not in his command, he was replaced by gen. Tajurski, but I think, that this second date is correct not the first one.

If you accept the version of suicide (22.06.41) then this information should become known to the main party authorities (Ponomarienko and gen. Pawolow). Also, his wife should know about it soon. Unfortunately, but it did not. Ponamarienko (+ Pavlov) and his wife (Nina Pavlovna) were not entrusting this version with such an early suicide.

During the interrogation of Pavlov at the beginning of July 1941 nothing mentions abut this suicide, and it would be a comfortable argument for him to defence (he was shot 22.07.41).

In connection with the above I can not agree with this version M. Tymin - is contrary to the logic and memories of people close ties with gen. Kopets.

For me the date of 23.07.1941 is a day of death gen Kopets. If other evidence would surface (like NKVD's archive), I would change my opinion. So far nothing such has not yet surfaced.

regards,
mw
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  #23  
Old 11th June 2017, 15:35
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Re: War Over The Steppes

I completely agree as into Kopets as well into Timin errors. Timin and I were frequently in touch. He completed some interesting studies as into 20, 21 and 45 SAD during 1941 ( area of my research ) however just because he worked at TsAMO this does not qualify him as a final source of information . For example his material related to Odessa Military District aviation groups duing 1941 containing major errors....Timin is not specialised into Red Army purges , he's not a qualified historian of VVS 1941 - 1944 eras ,nor ever completed any studies into VMF Air Fleet 1941-1944 .Further more he repeatedly disputed various relevant details on Denes /Karlenko publications which at this point was a major lack of knowledge at his end . PS : Kopets case is just an other Stalinist era " suicide " case with parallels to Ordzhonikidze and Nadezhda A. deaths
  #24  
Old 12th June 2017, 00:00
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: War Over The Steppes

Hello Mirek and researcher111,

don't sure that I have a right to posting the details but Timin saw the coded telegram about Kopets's suicide. It was sent in the evening of 22.Jun.41 with some details of that tragic incident.

Best regards,
Andrey
  #25  
Old 12th June 2017, 11:50
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Re: War Over The Steppes

Timin saw many other telegrams and facts we've discussed in the past ,therefore one should take with caution what he saw, what he heard and what he's saying! For example an argument as into Stern's execution Oct 1941 was linked to Kopets fate because both were Spanish era vets , their fates were not linked to one an other eventhough many of the Spanish era vets were suspected by NKVD as Thuhatschevsky and Trotzkist plotters .Despite the material he took from TsAMO he's not a historical source or qualified historian .
  #26  
Old 12th June 2017, 12:58
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: War Over The Steppes

It seems the sole solid conclusion from our brief discussion is that you and Timin are not the friends.

Best regards,
Andrey
  #27  
Old 12th June 2017, 13:52
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Re: War Over The Steppes

No, I would put it the other way around , friendship has nothing to do with history knowledge and you repeatedly jumpping to conclussions unable to back up your own historical statements . Therefore, Mr Kuznezov I suggest you keep such offensive and self defeating remarks for yourself !

PS : Please review again the military history of your country before jumping the gun .

Нет, я бы сказал по-другому, что дружба не имеет ничего общего со знанием истории, и вы неоднократно приходите к выводам, неспособным поддержать ваши собственные исторические утверждения. Так, господин Кузнецов, предлагаю вам сохранить такие оскорбительные и самонадеянные замечания для себя самого. P.S. Пожалуйста, изучите снова военную историю своей страны, прежде чем делать выводы.

Last edited by researcher111; 12th June 2017 at 15:30.
  #28  
Old 12th June 2017, 15:34
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: War Over The Steppes

Hello researcher111,

About "back up the historical statements": do you have something to prove your following conspiracy-like sentence (for Ordzhonikidze and Alliluyeva, as for Kopets your "arguments" were stated above) :

Quote:
Originally Posted by researcher111 View Post
Kopets case is just an other Stalinist era " suicide " case with parallels to Ordzhonikidze and Nadezhda A. deaths
The same question is about the sources of "138,000+ executed officers from captains and above".

Best regards,
Andrey
  #29  
Old 12th June 2017, 23:45
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Re: War Over The Steppes

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Originally Posted by researcher111 View Post
Therefore, Mr Kuznezov I suggest you keep such offensive and self defeating remarks for yourself !
Researcher111, you should know by now that you do not talk that way on this forum. If you can't manage to disagree politely, then keep your angry thoughts to yourself. Nobody else needs to read them.

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