Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940

[Faenor]

Hi all,

as I'm sorting through my photo archive on this type of aircraft, I'd like to match the photos directly to specific production numbers - is there somewhere a list of all Glens used in the French Air Force with there fate- magazine article, book, etc.?

From net, I have this link with aircraft list, but there are info just about the total lost.

https://www.passionair1940.fr/Armee%...artin-167F.htm

Any information is welcome

Faenor

[Stig Jarlevik]

Well, I have not come across a specific book dealing with the Martin 167 (Maryland).
A number of books/articles exist of course but it is a tricky situation, since some aircraft just seems to
disappear.

What is known is that the French ordered 345 Martin 167F-1/2/3 and they should have been assigned
No 1 - 345.
What is also known is that the French received No 1 - 234
Also known is that the British took over the French order from No 284 and up

The problem aircraft are those in between, ie No 235 - 283.
From what I have gathered there are five unaccounted aircraft in that later batch which we simply
don't know where they ended up.

The "villain" in the equation is the vessel 'Jean-Louis Dreyfus' which carried 26 Martin 167F to France in July
1940 but ended up in Liverpool with its cargo. Had we known exactly what was onboard, there would
have been no problem, but we don't!

France received for certain
No 236, 250, 259, 260, 263-266, 268-269, 272-278, 283 + five unknown.

The 26 aircraft onboard Dreyfus were given RAF s/n BS421 - 428 and BS760 - 777, and only BS777 is known
to have been ex No 262

Source: Air Arsenal by Phil Butler and Dan Hagedorn

Cheers
Stig

[bearoutwest]

Malcolm Laird of Ventura Publications wrote an e-book on the Martin 167 (in French and British service) way back in the 1990s. Perhaps you could contact him on his website and see if he has any details.

https://www.venturapublications.com/


...geoff

[Alex Smart]

From what I have read in the AB RAF Serial Number books and the AB book on Lend- Lease, which gives a little history of the Maryland and the French order for the Glenn Martin 167F.

Their order was for a total of 245 aircraft in two batches.

115 for early 1939 and a second for 130 after the declaration of the War.
Their first aircraft was delivered in December 1939.
By May 1940 they had seventy seven in service.
At the end of hostilities they had 245 aircraft, many still in their delivery boxes. Some 40 aircraft are thought to have been lost in the fighting.

In regard to those Maryland I's in the BJ421 - BJ428.
These were delivered in January 1941 from the ex French contract F-272.
BJ421,423,425,427 served with 69 Sqdn.
BJ428 went to serve with the FFAF.
And BJ422,424,426 were lost at sea. Not sure if this was during delivery to the UK or after delivery and lost during delivery to the ME ?

BS760 to BS777 were delivered in January 1941 from the ex French contract F272. BS771 and BS775 were lost at sea on 27/02/1941.

50 Maryland I's AR702 to AR751 from the French Contract F272 were delivered between July 1940 and January 1941.

2 Martin 167F's impressed on arrival from Tunisia, AX670 ex 102 and AX671 ex 82. However the RAF serial number's were not carried on these two aircraft.

2 Martin 167F's diverted to the RAF from the French con were delivered in December 1940. AX689 ex 1174 and AX690 ex1170 both served with 39 Sqdn.

2 Martin 167F's diverted to the RAF from the French Contract were delivered in December 1940. AX692 ex 1167 and AX693 ex 1173.

1 Martin 167F diverted to the RAF from the French contract was AX696 ex 1191 which went on to serve with the SAAF.

150 Maryland II's AH280 to AH429 from the French Contract F272 were delivered between March 1941 and March 1942.

61 Martin's were given UK serials. 284 to 310 312 to 345 to the UK while 311 went to the Middle East.

So if you take the 50 AR's, the five AX's and the BJ's 421,423,425,427 and 428 that gives 60 then 311 that went to the ME totall's 61.

The 150 in the AH serial range were later deliveries.

Oh yes there were at least three others,
HK 836, probably ex French.
HK845, Presumed escaped from Vichy AF, Soc 22/02/1942.
HK865, impressed, probably ex Vichy AF.

Hope that this is of some use.
All the best,
Alex

[Stig Jarlevik]

Alex

All sources at hand says the French ordered 345 aircraft
Contract 1 (Marché No 650/9): 115 c/n 879 - 993
Contract 7 (Marché No 650/9 add on): 100 c/n 994 - 1093
Contract 35 (Marché No 12/0): 130 c/n 1096 - 1225

If your sources only mention 245 they clearly have missed the add on order for 100 above

I have pretty detailed data of the French use of the type, but I have not tabulated it and it takes
too long to do so at this moment

Cheers
Stig

[Alex Smart]

Hi Stig,
Take another look at the link that Faenor provided in his first post. It definitely says 245, not 345.
I thought your 345 was a typo but seems not.

Also this website has some Martin 167F details -

http://www.joebaugher.com/usattack/a22_2.html

Alex

[Faenor]

Stig, Alex, Geof - thank you for sharing your knowledge, links and just being cooperative - much appreciated! Thank you again

Faenor

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Alex Smart

Hi Stig,
Take another look at the link that Faenor provided in his first post. It definitely says 245, not 345.
I thought your 345 was a typo but seems not.

Also this website has some Martin 167F details -

http://www.joebaugher.com/usattack/a22_2.html

Alex

Hmm
Actually didn't notice that, but as you say it is wrong.
I wonder how the site tries to explain 245 ordered and up to No 266 aircraft listed?
Did the Yanks throw in a "few extra" just to say thanks?
No they missed out the extra 100 for some reason and then stopped thinking...
Cheers
Stig

[Alex Smart]

This may help to answer your question Stig.

AH205 to AH279.(75 aircraft).
Serial numbers allotted by BAC ( British Air Commission) apparently for possible purchases which never took place.

So maybe 25 of the 100 aircraft did get to France, or were retained in the USA for a short while before becoming part of a later delivery to the RAF, SAAF or Middle East and being renumbered with a different
serial number ???

From AB's AA100 - AZ999 (2nd Edition).
AH205 to AH279 Allotted to 75 Martin Maryland I's purchased in USA but serials not used.

Alex

[Alex Smart]

Hi Stig,
I have just found the following.

"The 50 "ex-French" aircraft AR702 to AR751 were delivered directly to the British via Canada between July 1940 and January 1941 with AR720 going to the Admiralty on 28 Oct 1940.

The AR aircraft were originally allocated serials AH205 to AH279 by the BAC in Washington. Those serials were never applied and instead the AR serials were allocated by Air Ministry in London on arrival. The French numbers in the course of delivery were 216-345 and the British took over nos 284 to 345 in the USA. At the time some of these aircraft were already in crates at the French Commission's Weehauken depot awaiting shipment and were purchased directly by the British whilst the rest of the aircraft were still to be completed. However they were supposedly all fitted with British equipment and painted before delivery. The "missing" seven aircraft have never been accounted for.

The aircraft which were on board Jean-Louis Dreyfus (actually in transit to France and diverted to UK) included 26 Marylands from the following batches 235, 237-249, 251-258, 261, 262, 267, 270, 271 and 279-282 but these were all stored crated at Burtonwood after arrival in July 1940 and were eventually allocated serials in the BJ421-BJ428 and BS760-BS777 range. In addition there were 6 "escapers" allocated additional RAF serials".

The full thread can be seen here -

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/...rtin-maryland/

Alex