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  #1  
Old 23rd December 2019, 08:22
Edward L. Hsiao Edward L. Hsiao is offline
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Smile Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

How many Luftwaffe fighter aces scored over 100 air to air kills over all fronts during World War II?

Edward L. Hsiao
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Old 23rd December 2019, 12:37
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Depends on what you are really asking.

Do you mean mere victory claims?

Or, are you asking about the real aircraft/verifiabale shot down by these pilots?
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Old 23rd December 2019, 14:26
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Hi Edward

Less than we were led to believe, and it's not clear cut Ulrich Wohnert and Paul-Hinrich Dähne may very well have, but not sure. Those I am sure of ninety-five, with Grasser, Priller, Clausen, Miethig and Galland all on exactly "100". I found Bühligen to have several unconfirmed within his 112 that has always been claimed for him, actually I found nine unconfirmed for him, and ninety-nine confirmed(until 5th July 1944), but he may have claimed a few during 1945, but JG2 hardly claimed any after 1944.

So my personal answer would be ninety-five, plus three maybes, and there is a chance that one or two more may just have in the last months of the war, but unlikely.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 24th December 2019, 11:24
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Hi Edward

Sorry I forgot to add in Walther Dahl. TOCH has had a lot to talk about with him. His abschusselist has come to light of late, one would think is was fake, yet somehow I think it is genuine in itself, but possibly the information Dahl has on it is fake. His book published over fifty years ago indicates that he had 133 confirmed claims, yet the mikrofilms miss some thirteen of these, so in theory the total that HE claims is 120.

Anyhow the confirmed "100" club are :-

Hartmann 352
Barkhoen 300
Rall 274(Rall himself stated that the last was unconfirmed as he was hospitalised and didn't do paperwork)
Kittel 266+
Nowotny 256
Batz 235(no USAAF claims were confirmed)
Rudorffer 219
Bär 209
Weissenberger 208
Graf 206
Hafner 203
Lipfert 200
Krupinski 197
Philipp 193
Brendel 189
Stotz 183
Kirschner 181
Schuck 181(plus twenty-five unconfirmed, which he added to his total as per Hermann Goring's statement)
Erhler 180+(he was very active during October 1944, but microfilm entries omitted for JG5)
Hackl 180+(very active in last months of the war sfter mikrofilms cease, highest KBT paper mention is his 180th.
Josten 178
Schack 174
Schmidt 173
Brändle 170
Lang 170
Steinhoff 168
Reinert 168
Ademeit 160
Wilcke 155
Marseille 152
Beisswenger 150
Düttmann 147
Tegtmeier 146
Gollob 145(his own document state that some of his "150" were unconfirmed)
Wolf 142
Müller 140
Gratz 138
Trenkel 138
Müncheberg 135
Fonnekold 134(no Mustangs)
Wolfrum 134
Setz 133
Schall 133
Dickfeld 132
Borchers 132
Lemke 131
Waldmann 131
Hoffmann 130
Eisenach 129
Oesau 127
Grislawski 127 or more likely 128
Webber 126
Hrabak 125
Ihlefeld 123
Zwernemann 123
Sturm 123+(but his rottenflieger states no where near what has been quoted in the past i.e 157/158)
Weiss 122
Dorr 122(his own leistungsbuch lists 122 not 128)
Ettel 121(a book of his letters home confirm exactly to the mikrofilms not previous 124)
Leie 121
Marquardt 121
Tonne 120
Dahl 120
Schnaufer 119
Wiese 118
Wernicke 118
Birkner 116
Crinius 114
Obleser 112+(personally stated that his USAAF claims were not confirmed as he didn't witness actual crash-sites in each case)
Beerenbrock 111
Lent 111
Lützow 109
Seiker 109
Korts 108
Sterr 108
Vechtel 108
Molders 107
Hahn 106
Bitsch 106
Schroer 106(staffelbord matches mikrofilms, and indicates several u/c not found on mikrofilms)
Lucas 105
Bauer 104
Sachsenberg 104
Norz 104
Wurmheller 103
Dammers 103
Lambert 103(mostly missing from mikrofilms, however KBT papers list his last as his 103rd)
Mayer 102+(there is one entry on the mikrofilms with only date and time listed missing from the daily microfilm entries, as Mayer was the ONLY person claiming for the Stab./JG2 at this era, it's probably him.
Ostermann 102
Wernitz 101
Galland 100(claimed whilst banned from flying, thus no official claim submitted, then Nr.95-100 with jet)
Miethig 100
Clausen 100
Priller 100
Grasser 100

With Beisswenger and Miethig each had an airbaloon counted, they are not aeroplanes, also with Düttmann, I didn't count tanks for 1945, he also had forty-five unconfirmed.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S

With some others mikrofilms don't bare-out their previously accepted totals, like von Fassong Ubben, Geisshardt, Woidich, Rademacher, Rollwage, Wachowiak and Tanzer.

With Geisshardt and Woidich there own abschusseliste give total below "100", with Tanzer 43 is more likely....perhaps a typo.
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Old 25th December 2019, 01:24
leonventer leonventer is offline
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Interesting info there, Johannes! Thanks for posting.


Couple comments:

Gerhard Thyben was a notable no-show in the above list. In volume 4 of your "Luftwaffe Aces" series, you have him at 157. Have you since revised his tally, or was this just an error of omission? :-)

I was expecting to see Kurt Bühligen pop up too, but then I checked volume 1 and saw that you have him as ineligible for the 100 club with his 99 victories...

Just curious: You have Hartmann listed at his usual 352, but what would you consider his actual score to be?


Regards and very happy holidays to all,
Leon Venter
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Old 25th December 2019, 01:43
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

I believe we should, and to an extent at least, can do better than making glib statements about aces' claiming accuracy without providing anything to back it up.

Here is what I have been able to find about Hartmann's opponents:

Hartmann's known victims and overclaims:
No.1, IL-2 on 5.11.42/1205 over PQ 44793, Digora (Caucasus) @ 400m: 7 GShAP, 4 VA. No further details known.
No.3, LaGG-3 on 9.2.43/0655-0750 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86722) @ 1000m: 66 IAP lost St.Lt. Ilya Vladimirovich Khludenev KIA this date (was this him?)
No.4, Boston on 10.2.43/0615 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86671) @ 3200m: 63 BAP, 132 BAD, 5 VA.Crew of St. Serzhant Isatov, navigator of the crew, Andrei Yakovlevich Smolyar baled out POW, returned 1945
No. 7, P-39 on 15.4.43/1533 over Taman: 45 IAP, either 41-38451 of Starishiy Leytenant M Petrov or 42-4606 of Serzhant Bezbabnov (but see Waldemar Eyrich's claim). Both KIA
No.16, U-2 on 15.5.43/1210 over Titarovskaya station (Taman) (PQ 86544) @ low altitude: HQ 278 IAD. Leytenant Vladimir Ivanovich Ershov (senior pilot)[KIA] 274 IAP (3 IAK) and passenger Ml.Lt. Evgeniy Ivanovich Kryukov [MIA] 43 IAP (3 IAK)
No.20, IL-2 on 5.7.43/0340 over Ugrim. 241 ShAP, no further details known
No. 22, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0350: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)
No. 23, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0352: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)
No. 29, LaGG on 8.7.43/0905 over Ugrim (PQ 61223) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA
No. 30: LaGG on 8.7.43/0910 over Ugrim (PQ 61221) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA
No. 31, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1805 over Ugrim (PQ 62872) @ 2500m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore)
No. 32, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1825 over Ugrim (PQ 61134) @ 1000m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore)
No. 39, "LaGG" on 16.7.43/1415 over PQ 54661 @ 1500m: 18 GIAP and Normandie Niemen Eskadrilya. 18 GIAP lost Serzhant Ivan Stolyarov while Normandie Niemen lost Kpt. Albert Littolff (possibly by Hartmann), Lt. Noel Castelain and M.Lt. Adrien Bernavon. All KIA
No. 52, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1019 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61391) @ 3500m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA
No. 53, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1030 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61331) @ 2000m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA
No. 78: La-5 on 15.8.43/1810 La-5 over Peretschepino (PQ 70762) (Sukhaya Kamenka) @ 3000m. No.3810123 of 5 GIAP, 207 IAD, 17 VA, Lt. Samoilenko safe. Plane damaged in combat with Bf109s, crashed due to lack of fuel and written off
No. 89: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0607 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged
No. 90: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0608 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged
No. 94, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 5000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return
No. 95, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 4000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return
No. 96, "LaGG" on 19.9.43/1440 over PQ 58614 @ 1200m: Likely a Yak of 812 IAP. Lt Georgiy Pavlovich Churakov KIA (came down Andreyevka, landed safely but found dead in his aircraft by Soviet troops the following day. Best match by location, timing a little out)
Nos. 98-100, 2 LaGGs and a P-39 on 20.9.43: 288 IAD, 17 VA lost at least one Yak-7 this date
Nos. 106 & 107, P-39s on 26.9.43: 9 GIAD (16, 100 and 104 GIAPs), 8 VA. Misidentification or overclaiming, no losses this day
No. 112, P-39 on 29.9.43/0855 over Zaporozhe (PQ 58682) @ 4000m: Probably Maj. Vladimir Grigorievich Semenishin HSU, 2 x OL, ORB and OPW 1st Class of 104 GIAP KIA
No. 120, P-39 on 2.10.43/1140 over Novo Zaporozhe (PQ 58 581) @ 5000m: possibly Podpolkovnik (?) Arkadiy F Kovachevich of 9 GIAP. Baled out near Melitopol and survived
Nos. 145 and 146. P-39s on 26.10.43, Novo Zaporozhe sector. 9 GIAP. Overclaiming, Kapitan Ivan Korolev returned safely with damage
Nos. 163-165, P-39s on 8.1.44: 5 VA, including 7 IAK (205 and 304 IAD). These claims are believed to be against 69 GIAP, 304 IAD. Starshiy Leytenant Belyaev damaged and returned safely (three bullet holes) and one other damaged and bellylanded
No. 192, P-39 on 4.2.44/1140: 129 GIAP. St.Lt. Bekashonk and his wingman (Ml.Lt. Koshel'kov). Overclaiming, no actual loss
No. 193, P-39 on 26.2.44/0908: 129 GIAP. Ml.Lt. Leontiya Zadiraki baled out and returned safely
No. 194, P-39 on 26.2.44/0916: 205 IAD or 304 IAD. Overclaiming, no other losses at this time
No. 195-199, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. Three P-39s lost from a formation of four: Starshiy Leytenant Rybakov baled out safely, Starshiy Leytenant Nikolay Arsenovich Zinchenko (HSU) KIA and Leytenant Mamin also baled out. Ml.Lt. Demchenko's P-39 was slightly damaged and Ml.Lt. Motuzko's was sent to PARM for major repairs after bellylanding 12km S of Kirovograd)
Nos. 200 & 201, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. These were likely the P-39 of Leytenant Lusto, only damaged or another claim for Vodolazhskiy (also claimed by Rall and Bachnick)
No. 202: 438 IAP P-39 on 26.2.44/1440. This was likely Leytenant Oleynikov, known to have baled out safely 10 minutes after Vodolazhskiy did
No. 212-217, LaGGs on 5.5.44: One of these may have been Leytenant Ivanov of 402 IAP, 265 IAD. KIA this date, attributed to Lipfert or Hartmann
227. 30.05.1944 12:25 P-39 - possible - P-39 of 438 IAP, lt. K. V. Myaskov, baled out
228. 30.05.1944 15:38 P-39 - possible - P-39 of 508 IAP
229. 31.05.1944 19:05 P-39 - overclaim
230. 31.05.1944 19:08 P-39 - overclaim
231. 31.05.1944 19:13 P-39 - overclaim
232. 01.06.1944 12:31 LaGG - overclaim
233. 01.06.1944 12:38 LaGG - overclaim
234. 01.06.1944 15:20 LaGG - possible but unlikely - P-39 of 438 IAP, m. lt. N. T. Motuzko, MIA
235. 01.06.1944 15:30 LaGG - overclaim
236. 01.06.1944 15:32 P-39 - overclaim
237. 01.06.1944 15:35 P-39 - overclaim
238. 02.06.1944 18:10 P-39 - overclaim
239. 02.06.1944 18:15 P-39 - overclaim
240. 03.06.1944 14:30 P-39 - overclaim
241. 03.06.1944 14:33 P-39 - overclaim
242. 03.06.1944 15:00 LaGG - overclaim
243. 03.06.1944 17:17 LaGG - overclaim
244. 04.06.1944 16:10 P-39 - overclaim
245. 04.06.1944 16:25 LaGG - overclaim
246. 04.06.1944 18:13 P-39 - overclaim
247. 04.06.1944 18:23 P-39 - overclaim
248. 04.06.1944 18:53 P-39 - possible, damaged - P-39 of 16 GIAP, m. lt. G. G. Statsenko, slightly injured
249. 04.06.1944 19:15 P-39 - overclaim
250. 04.06.1944 19:18 P-39 - overclaim
251. 05.06.1944 14:12 P-39 - P-39 of 100 GIAP, m. lt. N. I. Zaytsev, survived (?)
252. 05.06.1944 14:19 P-39 - overclaim
253. 05.06.1944 16:15 LaGG - possible - La-5 of 240 IAP
254. 05.06.1944 19:07 LaGG - possible - La-5 of 240 IAP, m. lt. E. A. Karpov, survived
255. 05.06.1944 19:35 P-39 - overclaim
256. 05.06.1944 19:40 P-39 - overclaim
257. 06.06.1944 16:25 LaGG - overclaim
258. 06.06.1944 16:30 LaGG - overclaim
259. 06.06.1944 20:15 P-39 - possible but unlikely - P-39 of 438 IAP, m. lt. A. I. Sopin, survived
260. 06.06.1944 20:25 P-39 - overclaim
261. 06.06.1944 20:35 P-39 - overclaimNos 249 & 250, P-39s on 4.6.44: During 4th sortie, Hartmann and Birkner were jumped by 2 Aircobras, Hartmann claimed both. They were flown by Mayor B. B. Gakhaet and Leytenant Nikolay L. Trofimov of the famous 16 GIAP. Both returned home unscathed
No. 264, P-51C-5-NT Mustang on 24.6.44/0950: Day's only loss was 42-103599/42 of 318th FS, 325th FG. Joseph W Harper MIA (Diekmann and Birkner claimed as well)
Nos. 296, 299 & 300, P-39s on 24.8.44: 9 GIAD. Very likely overclaiming, only one loss this date: an aircraft that was separated from its parent formation, pilot MIA
No. 304, Yak-9 on 27.10.44/1016 over Nyregynaza (PQ 18265) @ 2500m: Previously thought to be 2912 ("29-292-12")/"29" of 2 AE, 150 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut, now thought to be an overclaim….
No. 306, La-5 on 1.11.44/1435: Overclaiming. Only loss of an La-5 in Hartmann's area of operations this date is attributable to Hungarian pilot Capt. Laszlo Pottyondy
No.307, Yak-7 on 7.11.44/1335 over PQ 98563 @ 1000m: Initially thought to be Possibly HQ of 13 GIAD, serial 32(292)14? Gv.Lt. Evgenii Andreevich Pyankov. 6 Yaks at 1400m in the Lajosmizse area against 4 ‘Fw 190’s. Frontal attack, the Yak burst into flames. Pilot baled out WIA. Now thought to be an overclaim….
No. 309, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1410: Possibly 0215354 of 179 IAP, 331 IAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt Evgenii Ivanovich Teplishev
No. 310 Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1415. Known to be an overclaim
No. 311, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1425: Possibly 11186 of 149 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Ml.Lt Aleksandr Titovich Kotlyar
No. 312, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1430. Known to be an overclaim
Nos. 313 and 314, La5s on 14.11.44. Originally thought that these were likely claims for 39213519 of 92 IAP, 279 IAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt. Sergei Alekseevich Matveev WIA. Day's only known loss of an La-5 but was lost at 1520hrs, to Flak and 2 x Fw190s (Soviet records)
No. 315 Yak-9 on 16.11.44. Originally thought possibly 2015315 of 73 GIAP, 6 GIAD, 5 VA. Alexandr Stepanovich Shuvalov. Now believed to be an overclaim
No.316 La-5 or Yak-9? on 16.11.44. If an La-5, was this Boris Vasilevich Zhigulenkov of 240 IAP, KIA? If a Yak-9 Possibly 2015315 of 73 GIAP, 6 GIAD, 5 VA. Alexandr Stepanovich Shuvalov
No. 317, Boston on 17.11.44/1425 over PQ 98584 @ 2000m: Overclaiming. 453 BAP, 218 BAD, 5 VA did indeed lose a Boston but it is attributable to Hungarian Capt. Laszlo Pottyondy. Csaba B Stenge states this was a "shared" kill
No. 318, Yak-9 on 22.11.44/1140. Overclaiming, no Yak losses in this area
No. 319, La-5 on 22.11.44/1145 over PQ 98452 @ 4500m: Possibly 177 GIAP, 14 GIAD, 5 VA. Pilot Kovrigin shot down in dogfight in Hatvan area
Nos. 320 & 321, IL-2s on 22.11.45: Possibly 809 ShAP, 264 ShAD, 5 VA. Overclaiming, only one loss: crew of Polunin-Kuptsov, crashlanded 7km NW of Csany. Repaired and returned to service (attributed by Soviet sources to AAA).
Two La-5s on 5.12.44: 486 IAP, 279 IAD, 5 VA lost 39212724 of Ml.Lt. Vladimir Grigorevich Snagovski MIA at 1155 local time over Ercsi, S of Budapest (was this it?)
Two Yak-9s on 9.12.44: 150 GIAP lost 2329218 of Gv.Ml.Lt. Lev Gerasimovich Kamanyan crashlanded at 1450 local time after dogfight
No. 352, Yak on 8.5.45: 2 VA, 5 VA or 17 VA, pilot said to be KIA
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Old 25th December 2019, 06:28
leonventer leonventer is offline
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Hi Nick,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Hector View Post
I believe we should, and to an extent at least, can do better than making glib statements about aces' claiming accuracy without providing anything to back it up.
I agree, which is why I appreciate the detailed postings you've provided for many individual aces.

I've seen earlier incarnations of your list of Hartmann's opponents, and it's good to see that you've made much progress in fleshing it out. Based on the approx. 57 overclaims (at the very least) in your list alone, it appears that a generous estimate of Hartmann's score would be no more than 295.

Thanks,
Leon Venter
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Old 25th December 2019, 15:33
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Alfred.MONZAT Alfred.MONZAT is offline
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Hello Johannes,
In one of the latest Avions mag, Philippe Saintes mention tallies slightly different to yours, so I let you know:
- Wilhelm Balthasar, one more victory in Spain (07/02/1938 - I-16) and instead of an unconfirmed MS.406 he put a third confirmed Gladiator for 11/05/1940.
- Otto Bertram, he quote as unconfirmed 3 of the spanish victories (07/09/1938 & 23/09/1939) and reduce from three to one victory over Bloch fighters on 03/06/1940
- Karl Heinz Koch, two more victories: 22/09/1943 - 13h15 - P-47 & 08/03/1944 - 11h00 - B-24 HSS
- Franz-Josef Beerenbrock, for November 1942, three more unconfirmed (07/11/1942 - 07h42 - MiG-3 and two Pe-2 for 09/11/1942) and one more MiG-3 confirmed for 08/11/1942
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Old 25th December 2019, 17:35
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Teresa Maria Teresa Maria is offline
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

If the plane was destroyed and the pilot baled out, did it count as a claim or an overclaim? Did a claim have to involve the pilot's death? (I hope not.)
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Old 25th December 2019, 18:05
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa Maria View Post
If the plane was destroyed and the pilot baled out, did it count as a claim or an overclaim? Did a claim have to involve the pilot's death? (I hope not.)
You're rather obsessed on this whole death thing....

But anyhow, the destruction of the aircraft is what mattered, regardless of the fate of the pilot.

Five minutes of decent reading on the subject would've answered that for you.
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