Strange case of Walter Dahl

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

Nick

Judging honesty in a man without ever meeting him in person is difficult. From your answer I can only suppose you never did (neither did I).

All fighter pilots in the Med area overclaimed tremendously when the Fortresses and Liberators appeared, meaning that everybody was dishonest if your method is to be used. There was a whole lot of wishful thinking involved in these claims, no doubt about it!
Taking on a pack of four-engined bombers took a lot of courage and the number of claims can equally be interpreted as how many combats he was involved in.

I don't intend to bicker with you about Schroer's honesty or not. I am satisfied that Johannes finds him by his measument to have been just that. My answer to you was simply because I did not know if you knew Johannes way of thinking or not. I suggest we leave it at that.

Cheers
Stig

No problem, but I have found some of his claims against Curtisses and Hurricanes to be equally unfounded and so I remain puzzled as to how and why Johannes makes statements about pilots' honesty and everyone just accepts it, free of any real evidence. No need to argue or bicker, just present evidence. Back up what you're saying, pure and simple.

[Nick Hector]

Werner Schroer

Happy to accept any correction or addition, just a partial list....


1st claim
19.4.41/1100-1245 (error?)
Hurricane
W of Tobruk
274 sqn. W9296 of P/O H J Baker baled out POW and V7811 of S/L J H Lapsley DFC forcelanded, WIA. Schroer is known to have been involved in strafing the wreck of V7811

2nd claim
25.6.41/1420
Hurricane
S of Sidi Barrani
DAF. Appears to be overclaiming

3rd claim
8.7.41
DAF. Believed these were actually claimed the previous day against 73 sqn, 5 losses in total. V7802 of F/L Aidan Crawley POW, Z4173 of F/L P O V Green POW, Z4649 of P/O S J Leach KIA, V7757 of P/O R W K White KIA, and M9197 of Sgt. G A Jupp KIA

4th claim
19.7.41/1817
Hurricane ("P-40 Tomahawk")
NE of Ras Asaz
73 sqn. W9270 of P/O Reynolds shot down and Sous Lt. Albert Littolf's plane damaged
(Franzisket and Werfft also claimed)

5th claim
21.8.41/1820
Hurricane
NE of Bardia
229 sqn. Only known loss was P/O Peter John Horniman KIA
(Foerster claimed some time beforehand)

6th claim
29.8.41/1810
P-40 Tomahawk
NW of Sidi Barrani
AM493 of 250 sqn, P/O Clive Robertson "Killer" Caldwell, damaged but returned safely. (AHOTMAW gives AK493)

7th claim
14.9.41/1555
TacR Hurricane I
S of El Hambra
451 sqn RAAF. F/O W D "Paddy" Hutley returned safely and V7485 of Sgt. Rowlands WIA

8th claim
30.5.42/1405
P-40 Kittyhawk I
NE of Bir Hacheim
3 sqn RAAF, either F/L Andrew William "Nicky" Barr (returned) in AK889 or Sgt. Colin Shaw MacDiarmid MIA-KIA in AL153. - This one said to be "Nicky" Barr
(Rudi Sinner inflicted the other loss)

9th claim
10.6.42/0749
Hurricane ("Curtiss P-40")
5km W of Bir Hacheim
3 and 213 sqns. 73 lost BN370 of F/L T P K Scade WIA (awarded a DFC later), 213's other losses were BN159/J of Sgt. D H Jackson KIA and BN562/F of F/O J A Sowrey safe
(versus 8 claims, of which one is attributed to Marseille)

10th and 11th claims
15.6.42/1806 and 1811
2 x Curtiss P-40s
NW of El Adem
No matchable allied losses

12th claim
23.6.42/1440
10km S of Sidi Omar
274 sqn Hurricanes. Overclaiming, no losses

13th claim and 14th claims
26.6.42/1140 and 1144
Hurricane and Curtiss P-40
SW of Mersa Matruh
Was this 238 sqn, Sgt. Lawrence-Smith?

15th claim
26.6.42/1610
Curtiss P-40
SW of Marsa Matruh
Possibly Sgt. Carlile of 260 sqn

16th and 17th claims
2.7.42/0700 and 0705
2 x Curtiss P-40s
SE and E of El Alamein
These appear to be overclaims, no matching losses

18th and 19th claims
3.7.42/1440 and 1447
2 x Hurricane IIs
S of Imayid, SE of El Hammam
73 sqn, 2 losses: BN546 of Sgt. G H Hill KIA and BN538 of F/S H W E Packham safe. 33 sqn also involved, suffered no losses



20th claim
3.7.42/1450
P-40 Kittyhawk I
SE of El Hammam
AK920/GA- of 112 sqn. Sgt. Donald Jeffrey Birchall White, baled out and evaded capture.

21st claim
4.7.42/1840
P-40 Kittyhawk
SE of El Alamein
AK852 of 112 sqn. Sgt. J B Agnew. Badly damaged, pilot safe

22nd and 23rd claims
6.7.42/1145 and 1148
2 x Curtiss P-40s
(Rosenberg claimed as well)
20km SW of El Alamein
2 sqn SAAF. Overclaiming, only one loss: AK970/C of Lt. A D Allen Cat II damaged

24th and 25th claims
11.7.42/1605 and 1610
2 x Curtiss P-40 ("Spitfires")
10km SE of El Alamein
2 and 5 sqns SAAF. 2 sqn lost ET1020(?)/B of Lt. Rupert Alan Durose KIA and ET912/H "Pinkie IV of Lt. L C H Hope slightly damaged. 5 sqn lost AK392 of Capt. K R Coster WIA-POW and AK382 of 2/Lt. Lionel William Rapp KIA whilst AK439 of Lt. Lindbergh WIA, AN451 of 2/Lt. Hinton WIA and AN394 of Maj. D V D Lacey DFC were all badly damaged. 2 sqn also had ET530/G of Maj. J D W Human forcelanded in Allied lines on the return flight

26th, 27th and 28th claims
13.7.42/0957, 1002 and 1005
3 x Hurricane IIs
Overclaiming, all losses were in the evening

29th claim
14.7.42/1015
SW of El Alamein
Likely 260 sqn. 3 losses: F/L W R McKay MIA, P/O J A Maclean and Sgt. N E McKee both safe. Serials not known
(Glaeser and Schoefbeck also claimed)

30th claim
16.7.42/1830
Curtiss P-40
SW of El Alamein
AK537/S of 5 sqn SAAF. Lt. C Sommerville. Aircraft badly damaged, pilot safe
(Rosenberg also claimed, so this could be viewed as overclaiming)

31st claim
17.7.42/1825
Hurricane IIB ("Curtiss P-40")
W of El Alamein
P296/U of 238 sqn. S/L Richard George Arthur Barclay KIA

32nd and 33rd claims
8.9.42/1245 and 1250
2 x Spitfires (one was actually a P-40)
Deir-el-Tarfa area
AK625 of 3 sqn RAAF. Sgt. K H Freer forcelanded in a minefield but safe. 145 sqn apparently also lost a Spitfire in this engagement, no details known

34th claim
13.9.42/1725
P-40 Kittyhawk I
Possibly AK716 of 112 sqn. Sgt. J H Morrison crashlanded safe, aircraft destroyed by fire

35th 36th and 37th claims
15.9.42/1140
3 x Curtiss P-40s
260 sqn. Other, unidentified squadrons possibly involved. There don't seem to have been any losses

38th and 39th claims
15.9.42/1645 and 1650
2 x Curtiss P-40s
El Alamein/NW of Deir-el-Tarfa
112 and 250 sqns, plus 3 and 450 sqns, RAAF. 3 sqn lost 41-36599/EV345 of P/O Jack Donald and EV322/CV-I of Sgt. Gordon George Scribner KIA whilst P/O Keith Kildey and Sgt. Ken Bee (WIA) both
had their planes damaged. 250 sqn lost P/O Thorpe and Sgt. Strong. 450 sqn lost Sgt. Peter Ewing POW

40th claim
15.9.42/1703
Spitfire
El Alamein area
Sgt. Young said to have been hit by flak but it was probably a Bf109. 450 sqn lost Sgt. Ewing POW

41st claim
16.9.42/0925
Curtiss P-40
S of El Alamein
(Schoefbeck claimed as well)
3 sqn, RAAF. Overclaiming, only one loss: Sgt. Woods, WIA returned to base

42nd claim
20.9.42/1633
Curtiss P-40
8km SW of El Alamein
4 sqn SAAF. EV316 of Lt. T B Milne forcelandedand returned the next day, AK795/L of Lt. R B McKechnie crashlanded WIA and ET971 of P/O J D Howard POW
(Schneider and Keller also claimed, so these were legitimate victories

43rd claim
21.9.42/1630
Spitfire
N of El Hammam
92 sqn. Overclaiming, no loss

44th claim
30.9.42/1030
P-40 Kittyhawk? ("Spitfire")
near Abu Dweis
Possibly a Kittyhawk of 112 or 250 sqn. Overclaiming, no losses

45th claim
2.10.42/1540
P-40 Kittyhawk
NNE of Deir-el-Tarfa
3 sqn RAAF and 112 sqn. Overclaiming no losses
(Schoefbeck and Gruber also claimed)

46th claim
9.10.42/0925
Baltimore II ("Boston")
NE of El Daba
AG975 of 223 sqn. Sgt. B V Ekbery, Sgt. W E Bates, Sgt. E R Moss and Sgt. W R Johnstone all POW, attributed to flak by the British

47th and 48th claims
9.10.42/1615 and 1620
Spitfire and Hurricane
El Daba and Bir el Abd
14 losses by WDAF this day. They include: 4 sqn, SAAF lost Lt. Shulz (Schulz?), 2sqn SAAF had two Kittyhawks badly damaged. 3 sqn, RAAF had P/O Clabburn attacked by 5 Bf109s and Sgt. Holloway
(Canadian with 450 sqn) shot down and POW. 5 Sqn, SAAF lost Lts. Thornley and Murdock. 250 sqn lost P/O Rogerson and F/O Tribken's machine was damaged (said to be by MC202) as were 3 others.

49th claim
20.10.42/1412
Hurricane ("Curtiss P-40")
SW of Deir-el-Tarfa
238 sqn. P/O Ormerod's machine known to be damaged
(versus 3 claims in total)

50th and 51st claims
23.10.42/0800 and 0830
2 x P-40 Kittyhawk ("P-46")
NE of El Alamein
Overclaiming? No matchable losses

52nd claim
24.10.42/0825
P-40 Kittyhawk
NE of El Alamein
Enemy unit uncertain

53rd claim
24.10.42/1645
Hurricane
SW of El Alamein
Enemy unit uncertain - 33 sqn definitely in action this day in any case

54th claim
26.10.42/1310
Curtiss P-40
W of El Alamein
112 sqn, losses were P/O Drake and FR263/GA-X F/O Keith Ronald Gardener (who was KIA). One of the serials lost this day was P-40F 41-14009/FL337, crashlanded near LG 21 after being damaged by Bf109s

55th 56th and 57th claims
27.10.42
3 x Kittyhawks
Quotifiya – El Daba
64th and 65th Fighter Squadrons with Spitfires from 601 sqn. No losses, but Hurricanes from both 33 and 213 sqn were also involved losing F/S S G Brooks and BP398 of S/L R M Lloyd (243 Wing) plus P/O Gardner (of 33 sqn top flight). Sgts Bates and Marcus had their machines damaged

58th claim
29.10.42/1225
P-40 Kittyhawk ("Spitfire")
S of El Alamein
2 sqn SAAF or 260 sqn. 2 sqn suffered AK568/V damaged and EV166 of Lt. John Graham Hunter Wilmot KIA was lost. 260 sqn lost 41-13760/FL223 of unknown pilot, believed downed by Bf109s

59th claim
30.10.42/0920
P-39 Airacobra
SSE of El Daba
Probably a misidentified Spitfire. EP643 certainly missing presumed shot down by Bf109 this date. F/O Howard James Phillips MIA-KIA

60th claim
4.11.42/121
B-24 Liberator
Between Sollum and Benghazi
Halverson detachment? Overclaiming? Can't find an attibutable loss

61st claim
16.11.42/1520
Curtiss P-40
S of Tecis
Overclaiming, no attributable losses

62nd and 63rd claims
2 x B-26 Marauders? ("Beauforts")
Believed by some sources to be 14 sqn B-26A-1-MA Marauder Is reported missing on 15.2.43 (….why the discrepancy in dates??) one was 41-7377/FK150, P/O Colin Carl Truman RAAF and crew all MIA. The other was FK142, forcelanded in Turkey with crew interned in Ankara. They do not appear to have been the result of enemy action and the losses took place hours later at around 1600 BT
Possible overclaiming

64th and 65th claims
29.4.43/1808 and 1810
2 x P-38F Lightnings
S of Marettimo
82nd FG. 95th FS lost 2/Lts. Charles R Curran, James P Reding and William P White KIA. 2/Lt. Louis E Curdes and Robert L Wells both crashlanded. 97th FS lost 2/Lt. James F Conners III and Robert C Delp KIA

66th claim
5.5.43/1500
B-24D Liberator
NW of Marettimo
Overclaiming, no losses this date

67th claim
9.5.43/1310
B-24 Liberator
1km E of Capo Gallo
Appears to be overclaiming, several were damaged this date but on a later raid
OR, IF A MISIDENTIFICATION/MISATTRIBUTION OR OTHER ERROR:
B-17F 42-5147 “Old Ironsides” damaged by fighter and collided with 41-24415 (both of 414th BS, 97th BG. Both crews all safe except one man baled out MIA). One other attributed to flak with crew all KIA, one forcelanded after Flak hit and 21 others lesser damage attributed to Flak

68th claim
9.5.43/1340
P-38 Lightning
70km NW Cap San Vito @ 8500m
Overclaiming, no losses of P-38s mentioned this date

69th claim
11.5.43/1146
P-38G-15-LO Lightning
60km NE of Cap Bon @ 6500m
43-2334 of 49th FS, 14th FG. Wayne M Chavis KIA. Last seen upside down with left engine on fire. Not seen to crash. Approx. 1200 hrs., 15-20 mi. SW of Marsala
(Either Schroer or Clade – more likely – might have downed him)

70th claim
11.5.43/1214
B-17 Flying Fortress
25km S of Marsala @ 3000m
Overclaiming, no losses this date

71st claim
18.5.43/1345
B-17 Flying Fortress
50km NW of Trapani @ 4500m
Overclaiming, no losses

72nd claim
19.5.43/1342
P-38 Lightning
10km W of Marettimo @ 1000m
14th FG. Includes John L Woolford of 49th FS KIA around 1230 (turned into Bf109s to allow two crippled planes to escape), Robert B Benton of 48th FS KIA and Frank C Howk Jr of 49th FS KIA by fighters near Trapani

73rd claim
21.5.43/1121
B-17 Flying Fortress
35km S of Marsala @ 7000m
Overclaiming, no losses

74th claim
21.5.43/1128
Spitfire
20km NW of Pantalleria @ 800m
Said to be a USAAF machine (31st or 52nd FG?). No losses at this time in any case. Overclaiming

75th claim
25.5.43/1117
B-17F Flying Fortress
40km NW of Marettimo @ 2200m
Losses attributed to fighters include B-17F-25-BO 41-24576 of 341st BS, 97th BG, 1/Lt. William Albright and 7 others safe, 1 WIA and 1 MIA. 49th BS, 2nd BG had 42-29638 damaged and forcelanded at Bizerta. 2/Lt. William J Valentine and six safe, three WIA. Possibly to fighters: B-17F-30-DL 42-3174 "Thunderbird" of 416th BS, 99th BG, Capt. Robert E L Goad and crew all KIA
347th BS had 42-29489 "Persuader" and 42-29490 "Axis Ass Ache" both damaged, crews safe

76th claim
31.5.43/1444
B-17F-25-VE Flying Fortress
WNW (300 deg) of Trapani @ 100m
(Kampe, Kapp and Buschek also claimed)
Only loss was 42-5831 "The Virgin" of 32nd BS, 97th BG. 1/Lt. Victor J Lewin and six others safe, two or three (sources vary) KIA

77th claim
7.6.43/0644
P-40 Kittyhawk
5km N of Pantellaria
Overclaiming, no losses at this time

78th and 79th claims
10.6.43/0926 and 0927
2 x P-40s
SSW of Granitola Torreta
Overclaiming, no losses at this time

81st claim
15.6.43/0823
B-17F Flying Fortress
2km W Favignana @ 3600m
No mention of any B-17 losses. Overclaiming

82nd claim
11.7.43/1320
B-24 Liberator
into the sea 25km S of Crotone @ 5500m
Overclaiming, no losses to fighters (only loss was due to an accident)

83rd and 84th claims
16.7.43/1300 and 1315
2 x B-24D Liberators
SW of Santeramo in Colle/WSW of Bari
11 claims for just three losses in total:
42-40649/73 of 514th BS, 376th BG. 1/Lt. Samuel D Rose and eight others baled out POW, one man KIA
42-40236 "Fyrtle Myrtle" of 513th BS, 376th BG. 1/Lt. Charlie G Hinson and six others KIA, 3 POW
42-40110/53 "Pink Lady" of 513th BS, 376th BG. 1/Lt. Roger Smith Jr and four others POW, 1 returned and 3 POW

85th claim
23.7.43/1410
B-17 Flying Fortress
20km N of Stromboli
Overclaiming, no losses

[Johannes]

Hi Nick

Don't seem to be any South African aircraft, by memory they seemed to fly P-40's during 1942, do you have South African loses?

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi Nick

Don't seem to be any South African aircraft, by memory they seemed to fly P-40's during 1942, do you have South African loses?

Kind Regards

Johannes

There don't seem to be any South African aircraft???

A quick CTRL-F search of the text reveals nine instances of the acronym "SAAF"

[knusel]

Back to the original topic.
Back to Dahl.
Were there any Viermot claims by Dahl in the 29Mar-12Apr1945 period ?

[Flavio]

Originally Posted by knusel

Good evening Johannes,

have you noticed that this website
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/mayer.html
indicates only 26 Viermot kills for Mayer ?
The kill that is different from your book is #84 (5Nov43).

Have a nice Thursday,

Michael

Hi all,

coming back to the original topic, it appears that Dahl had 27 "official confirmed" viermot, making him the top pilot in this list.
Mayer follow him with 26, not 27 as his victory #84 (05/Nov/43) was in fact a P-47 not a B-17 (according to O.K.L. Fighter Claims on Microfilms via Tony Woods).

Flavio

[knusel]

Good evening Flavio and Johannes,

I'm interested in that Mayer claim, too

Kind regards,

Michael

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by GrafWolf

Hello!

He was the only one who flew the new Do 335, a fighter with one piston engine
and one turbo-jet engine! (WHAT?) This happened in Februar 1945 at Rechlin!
Wahlter Dahl "Rammjäger" Orion Verlag Heusenstamm 1961-page 98.

This man rode also on a cannon-ball like Baron von Münchhausen!

Herzliche Grüsse aus Oberschwaben,

Wolfgang

For obvious reasons few 'enthusiasts' appear to have read his self-serving memoir. If they could this discussion wouldn't be taking place at all IMHO.There's a very good reason why his book hasn't been translated into English - too far-fetched for words. Given this it would be 'nice' to remove him from the top of everyone's lists as here. I don't have Johannes 'aces' series but without doubt and counting both Ab- und Herrausschüße and bearing in mind the difference between Abschuß and Luftsieg the top Viermot scorer is another JG 300 pilot - Konrad Bauer.

[knusel]

Hello FalkeEins,

nice to hear from you.
Can you tell me how many kills Konrad Bauer has scored in JG300 ?

Have a Pleasant Wednesday,

Michael

[FalkeEins]

er..no. Sorry Michael. Having made an assertion I've looked at Bauer's record a little more closely - there are big gaps. Just about every source agrees with his total of 57 including 32 Viermots although I can't actually find more than about half of that Viermot total....just goes to show how the same old figures get repeated over & over.