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Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union. |
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#1
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RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941
Hello,
Would anyone know which crew / unit shot down the Do 17 Kauz lost on 3/4 february 1941 east of lowestoft? Apparently it should have been a Handley Page Hampden from 5 Group. I don't think it was a crew from 48 or 104 Sqn. Foreman writes that the Hampden crew reported the aircraft as a Bf 110 so it seems like the incident has been captured in reports. I'm looking for Sqn and names so that I can check the relevant ORB for additional details. Best regards /Mike |
#2
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941
Interesting one, the only operational Hampden squadron that night was 44 Sqn but they were gardening in Brest and Lorient.
No mention of combat in ORB Martin |
#3
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941
Mike,
Could you please clarify a few points for me? 1/ The unit of the Do 17Z Kauz lost on 3/4 February, 1941? 2/ Why mention 48 and 104 Sqn's - 48 was a Coastal Command Anson squadron, 104 Squadron had merged with 108 Sqn in April 1940 to form 13 OTU, and not reforming until April 1941? 3/ You mention that "Foreman writes that the Hampden crew ...". Where does Foreman write that? Not being critical, just like to have a look at the sources. Col. |
#4
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941
Hello ,
4/02/1941 7./KG 2 Cowthick Lodge, Weldon Target Derby Defiant, 151.Sq Do 17 Z-3 Wnr 2907 U5+AR 100 Fw. Bahr, Horst KIA pilot Oblt. Krisch, Hubert KIA observer Uffz. Kliem, Helmut [KIA radio (Fw. Uehlemann, Heinz KIA engineer Regards Alain57 |
#5
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941
sure:
1) 2./NJG 2 2+3) I got the following reply at the RAFcommands forum: "John Foreman´s book 1941 Part 1 has the following details but for the night 4/5th February. "Bomber Command sent 106 Aircraft to raid airfields and Cannel ports, thirty more attacking Dusseldorf and four laying mines. On the outward journey a Hampden, some 30 miles out from Lowestoft, was intercepted by a fighter identified as a Bf110. The fighter opened fire and the Hampden rear gunner replied. The intruder vanished into cloud and suddenly a cloud of fire was seen dropping away. This was without doubt Oberleutnant Otto-Heinrich Häuser´s Do17Z-10of 2./NJG 2, which vanished into the North Sea this night." The Squadron which made the claim is not mentioned but at least 49 and 106 Squadron operated with Hampdens this night." (Mea culpa regarding Sqn 48/104 - should have been 49/106) So I'm trying to chase the original sources that Foreman allegedly refer to. I don't have that book myself. /Mike |
#6
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941
It is not just Foreman that lists this.
Theo Boiten in NJCA Early Years Vol 1 lists the loss to a Hampden on 3/4.02.41 Heinz Rökker in Chronik I Gruppe NJG2 lists the loss to a Hampden on 05.02.41 in the main text (p22) and on 04.02.41 in the summary of losses (p213). Therefore I assume on the night of 4/5.02.41 Harry Moyle in The Hampden File lists a Do17Z-10 shot down by a Hampden at 18:37 hrs on 04.02.41 but does not say which Hampden or unit On that night 49, 50 and 83 Sqn Hampdens went to Düsseldorf and 106 Sqn went Gardening off W France Of the two nights the 4/5 is more likely to have a Hampden over the North Sea (operationally) but none of the ORBs mention a claim My guess then is that the Hampden link is from a Group or Command level document Martin |
#7
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941
Thanks Martin and Alain57.
The German loss details I have from WASt/DD/BA: 1941-02-04, 2./NJG 2, Do 17 Z-10, 50 km östlich Lowestoft, 34 km südöstlich NorwichSo the KG 2 aircraft Alain57 mentions must be a different loss. My experience of working with RAF archival material is rather limted so I really appreciate any help or leads to track down the RAF counterpart for this encounter. Since a victory was achieved I would assume that it would have been documented in various ways, at least if the crew were aware of the outcome. |
#8
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941
Mike,
Thanks for the clarification. Col. |
#9
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941
If it was a victory not an accident. John Foreman's books were written some time ago and now have a few errors
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#10
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941
I know this forum repeatedly has doubts about Foreman but I think this cannot be put down to him this time
Rökker was published in 1997 and Moyle in 1989, both saying the same thing Martin |
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