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  #1  
Old 26th January 2014, 14:50
Theo Boiten Theo Boiten is offline
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Identity Red Air Force losses to German night fighters SE Europe 1944?

Dear all,

During my research of the Nachtjagd War Diaries 2nd edition, I have documented a number of German night fighter claims for Soviet Air Force bombers shot down over SE Europe during the summer and autumn of 1944, which I have not yet been able to identify -who can help me in matching the following claims to actual Red Air Force losses. Especially details about the bomber unit involved & serial numbers of these Soviet a/c are of interest:

10-11 June 1944
Oblt. Hans Krause: 10 6./NJG101 Mitchell Harkány, SW Budapest (NR 5, Himmelbett): 3.000 m. 23.22

9-10 August 1944

Fw. Eckart Ulmer: 1 8./NJG6 Mitchell W. Püspöknádasd (MR 3-1): 2.800 m. 00.03 14 GAP DD B-25, serial?

Fw. Eckart Ulmer: 2 8./NJG6 Mitchell SE Csengöd (KT 2-8): 2.900 m. 00.46 14 GAP DD B-25 D-30 43-3507

10-11 August 1944

Ofw. Josef Federle: 3 8./NJG6 Mitchell MA 7-4: 3.300 m. 01.02 22 GAP DD B-25, serial?
Oblt. Wilhelm Johnen: 22 8./NJG6 Mitchell Kismányoki-erdö (GB 4-FB 8): 2.000 m. 02.08

15-16 August 1944

Oblt. Wilhelm Johnen: 23 8./NJG6 Mitchell PS 58 14 Ost (Skorpion): 3.400 m. 22.59

26-27 August 1944

Oblt. Wilhelm Johnen: 27 8./NJG6 Mitchell nr Gombos (OT 76): 3.800 m. 22.30

15-16 September 1944

Oblt. Rudolf Thun: 5 9./NJG6 DB-3 60 km. NE Debrecen: 2.700 m. 21.55
Oblt. Karl Dörscheln: 1 6./NJG101 DB-3 NE Debrecen: 2.400 m. 21.59

16-17 September 1944

Ofw. Herbert Ludwig: 12 6./NJG101 DB-3F 50-60 km. N. Debrecen (Hungary) 21.41

17-18 September 1944

Oblt. Hans-Joachim Beck: 6 Stab II./NJG101 DB-3 Pl.Q. FC 22.26


18-19 September 1944

Oblt. Hans-Joachim Beck: 7 Stab II./NJG101 DB-3 Pl.Q. EA 1: 2.800 m. 21.00
Oblt. Josef Kraft: 37 7./NJG6 DC-3 Tokay area (DD 1.4): 2.800 m. 21.40
Lt. Wilhelm Dietz: 1 6./NJG101 DB-3 Pl.Q. DD 7 21.44


19-20 September 1944

Oblt. Josef Kraft: 38 7./NJG6 DC-3 Nyiregyháza (ED 23 – DD 89): 3.000 m. 21.04
Oblt. Josef Kraft: 39 7./NJG6 DC-3 Nyiregyháza (DD 9 – ED 3): 2.800 m. 21.20
Oblt. Karl Dörscheln: 2 6./NJG101 DB-3F Pl.Q. DB 21.37
Oblt. Karl Dörscheln: 3 6./NJG101 DB-3F Pl.Q. EA 21.55
Oblt. Karl Dörscheln: 4 6./NJG101 DB-3F Pl.Q. GB 22.05
Hptm. Hans Krause: 17 6./NJG101 DB-3F nr Budapest (CD-BD) 22.53
Hptm. Hans Krause: 18 6./NJG101 DB-3F nr Budapest (CD-BD) 23.00

20-21 September 1944

Oblt. Karl Dörscheln: 5 6./NJG101 DB-3F Pl.Q. EE 21.25
Oblt. Rudolf Thun: 6 9./NJG6 B-25 NE Debrecen: 3.300 m. 21.46

26-27 October 1944

Hptm. Hans Krause: 21 6./NJG101 DB-3F Budapest (FT 9-8) 22.47

Cheers and thanks for any help in this matter!

Theo
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  #2  
Old 18th October 2014, 21:50
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Identity Red Air Force losses to German night fighters SE Europe 1944?

Hello Theo,

Not a reply to your question, but the following link has a list of the transport aircraft lost over Slovakia in September and October 1944:
http://www.historickykaleidoskop.cz/...-povstani.html
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  #3  
Old 18th October 2014, 22:43
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: Identity Red Air Force losses to German night fighters SE Europe 1944?

10-11 June 1944:
Oblt. Hans Krause: 10 6./NJG101 Mitchell Harkány, SW Budapest (NR 5, Himmelbett): 3.000 m. 23.22
14 ГвАП ДД, B-25C-NA, S/N: 41-13032, Tail red "58" between Harkány and Siklós in Hungary on Nagy Lajos's property, гв.к-н Мухин Евгений Александрович's crew.


9-10 August 1944:
Fw. Eckart Ulmer: 1 8./NJG6 Mitchell W. Püspöknádasd (MR 3-1): 2.800 m. 00.03 14 GAP DD B-25, serial?
Wrong. It was B-25C-15-NA of 14 ГвАП ДД, 2 эа, S/N: 42-32474 (R-2600-13 engines: 43-21653 and 43-21678, Tail red "12") at Kismányok/Nagymányok in Hungary, гв.к-н Каракозов Армен Артемович's crew.

Fw. Eckart Ulmer: 2 8./NJG6 Mitchell SE Csengöd (KT 2-8): 2.900 m. 00.46 14 GAP DD B-25 D-30 43-3507
It was B-25DP-30-NC of 14 ГвАП ДД, 1 эа, S/N: 43-3507 (R-2600-13 engines: 43-21824 and 43-23496, Tail red "4") at Akasztó, Hungary, гв.л-т Пчелов Николай Николаевич's crew. Plane burned down a house, killing a boy with burning fuel.

10-11 August 1944:
Ofw. Josef Federle: 3 8./NJG6 Mitchell MA 7-4: 3.300 m. 01.02 22 GAP DD B-25, serial?
It was B-25DP-20-NC of 22 ГвАП ДД, 1 эа, S/N: 41-30612 (R-2600-13 engines: 42-76955 and 42-76809, tail red "45") at Martonos, on market field (now: Martonoš) гв.п.п-к Галинский Иван Федорович's crew.

Oblt. Wilhelm Johnen: 22 8./NJG6 Mitchell Kismányoki-erdö (GB 4-FB 8): 2.000 m. 02.08
Wrong location and false claim, - No such victory! (337 АП ДД, 3 эа, B-25(?), S/N: ....724, Tail red "84", returned to base with 75 holes. гв.л-т Федоров Геннадий Георгиевич's veeeeeeeeeery lucky crew.)


Sorry, no more time for now.
Gabor

(Most of these incidents are briefly described in my book.)
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  #4  
Old 20th October 2014, 19:58
Theo Boiten Theo Boiten is offline
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Re: Identity Red Air Force losses to German night fighters SE Europe 1944?

Hello and good evening Gabor,


Many thanks for your much appreciated answers to some of the questions that I raised re. Red Air Force losses in SE Europe to German Nachtjäger. Very useful indeed!

Re. the claim by Johnen on 10-11 August 1944, the Abschuss was officially confirmed as a full victory by the I. Jagdkorps on 26 November 1944..

Cheers and best wishes -and I do hope that you'll find the time to provide a few more answers.., Theo

And Laurent -many thanks for the link, I've checked if any of these transport losses could be linked to German NJ claims during these two months, but found no matches.
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  #5  
Old 20th October 2014, 21:20
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: Identity Red Air Force losses to German night fighters SE Europe 1944?

Theo, you're welcome! As of the "confirmed" victory, by November 26, 1944 I think that territory was already in Russian hands for several days or weeks, so not sure how they confirmed it. My guess is that they confirmed another wrecks they saw earlier nearby. There was NO other B-25 loss that night other than Galinskii's Mitchell! I do not think the soviets would have missed it in their report. The other plane was only damaged and returned with 75 hits to base.

These NJG battles with soviet planes in 1944 are (almost) the most difficult cases I have ever seen. Records are very confusing, locations are "off the maps", dates are tricky as eg. "August 16" could be the night of August 15/16, OR: 16/17, - depends on who and when wrote them (and with what accuracy). Royal Hungarian Police crash reports we have can help a lot for accurate crash sites, but: sometimes two Police stations reported the very same event that took place between & above them, so even police records can "double" the crashed planes in the statistics. Number of bodies mentioned in these police reports can also be wrong if they were completely destroyed and left behind in small, burned body parts.

Needless to say that official crash sites hardly match the NJG victory locations, since damaged planes still could fly more hundred kms before crash, so... without divine help, I think some cases will remain eternal mysteries...
Cheers,

Gabor
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Old 20th October 2014, 21:48
Theo Boiten Theo Boiten is offline
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Re: Identity Red Air Force losses to German night fighters SE Europe 1944?

Hi Gabor,

Thanks for your interesting comments -and yes, I can only echo your comments: "Needless to say that official crash sites hardly match the NJG victory locations, since damaged planes still could fly more hundred kms before crash, so... without divine help, I think some cases will remain eternal mysteries... " During the research of the NJWD 2nd edition, I've found many instances of 'certain' Abschüsse that concerned damaged a/c that made it back to their base, or claims that cannot possibly be tied to any known loss or even a damaged a/c.. So yes, there will always remain 'mystery claims'..

Cheers, Theo
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  #7  
Old 20th October 2014, 22:44
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: Identity Red Air Force losses to German night fighters SE Europe 1944?

Theo,

Just to make this story even MORE complicated, the soviet reports usually give Moscow local time, not "action-local time", which eg. in Hungary results a 2 hrs difference between the different reports... So this is an extremely difficult and complex research. But for final conclusion, see part of copy of the soviet mission report of August 10/11, 1944, dealing with the 337 AP DD Mitchell damage & 75 hits (not plane loss!). Interestingly the soviet Mitchell crew identified the German NJG fighter as Do 217. One of the crewmembers (Volodin) was slightly injured in the dogfight with the NJG fighter, but no casualties. "Sanok" was probably the City of "Szolnok" in Hungary.

Cheers,
Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 7th March 2016 at 18:00.
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Old 21st October 2014, 01:10
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: Identity Red Air Force losses to German night fighters SE Europe 1944?

If the soviet August 10/11, 1944 Yugoslav partisan supply-drop mission report gives local time for the night-fighter attack, then the difference between гв.л-т Федоров Геннадий Георгиевич's and Oblt. Wilhelm Johnen's report is only 3 minutes!!!! 02:05 - 02:08 AM! Very remarkable accuracy... (But as we know, гв.л-т Федоров's plane escaped with 75 holes, - did not crash. However, their success did not last too long as in a few days, on August 21/22, 1944 they failed to return from another Yugoslav supply-drop mission...)

Gabor
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Old 21st October 2014, 07:11
Csaba B. Stenge's Avatar
Csaba B. Stenge Csaba B. Stenge is offline
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Re: Identity Red Air Force losses to German night fighters SE Europe 1944?

Don't forget that in many cases, there are anti-aircraft artillery claims in the same area over the same wreck. Sometimes the same aircraft was confirmed in parallel for both the flying crews and also for the anti-aircraft artillery and sometimes for just one side, although it is not sure, which one destroyed it in reality.
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Old 21st October 2014, 10:06
Theo Boiten Theo Boiten is offline
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Re: Identity Red Air Force losses to German night fighters SE Europe 1944?

Many thanks Gabor and Csaba for your further comments -and yes Csaba, you're right in stating that many Nachtjagd claims for the destruction of a particular aircraft was often contested by Flak, and in quite a few instances by Flak searchlight units as well. That's why I've decided two years ago to analyse all the known Flak and (Flak) searchlight claims in the Reichsverteidigung and compare these with the NJ Abschüsse and present the results in the NJWD 2nd edition. I've now almost finished work on 1944, a huge amount of painstaking work but with most satisfying results!

Cheers, Theo
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