A 'what if' question RE: LW vs 8th AF

[Brian Bines]

A 'What If' that I have is if Steinbock had not been launched and the bomber force been built up on operations in the south or east , would then a rapid redeployment west have had a very serious effect on the Invasion. Another is that why did not the Luftwaffe attack US escorts at a much earlier stage of a raid when the P-51's were heavily loaded with fuel and ammo. loss of drop tanks would have affected long range potential. In such a case the Me110/410's SturmGroups etc. might have had more kills over Germany,

Brian Bines

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by mars

Sir, please consider the FACT that there is no way to find your target if you choose to fly at low level from, say France, to UK and find your target at night based on WWII navigation technology, you have to come in, locate your targe, then dive and close your target from lower leverl, this would let British air defense caught you long before you even have a chance to going low, but if you want to wander around, drop you bombs randomly on the field, then be my guest

Why do you say that? Taking a heading from say Abbeville to Dover, as an example landmark - then taking a heading from there to 'anywhere' in the middle of East Anglia. What FACTs are you proposing?

The notion is to fly the headings, search if need be for several minutes - no joy - take a heading back and use RDF to find your base - Why not sacrifice (potentially) agents to place a radio transmitter at a key target for homing purposes - designing one to a.) transmit intermittantly to make locating it difficult, and b.) enable an agent to plant one with less risk, might be another approach.

As for diving - no. In fact that is the primary hazard for the lucky night fighter that locks on to this random pair.

I'm confused regarding why you think Allied radar technology in 1943/1944 would do a good job of locating small targets flying very low at high speed, then directing night fighters to that location or intercept track to pick them up?

Further, how many such small attacks cause enough damage on bases with fuel loaded bombers or fighters before you cause serious changes to operational procedures?

This would have been 'guerilla warfare' with many two ship flights striking at RAF bases in early evening and US bases in early morning - not slow 100+ bomber forces flying into the strike zone of RAF night defenses.

BTW it would be far too much to ask in bad weather but relatively low altitude cloud cover for a decent instrument pilot would be to the advantage of the intruder - not the defender.

I really don't care if you have to suspend belief or not - it is a theory that is not easily dismissed as 'impossible'.

[mars]

Sir, I have said all I have to say, I have nothing more to say on this topic, let us simply agree to disagree and save time for both of us

[mars]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

German night Jabo, Intruder and bomber missions over Britain in 1943-1944 were often costly and often ineffective.

In spring 1944 several German raids of 100+ bombers failed to hit their target at all, and these were cities as big as London, Hull and Bristol. Targetting an airfield seems harder to me.

And the main German Intruder mission in late war, operation Gisela, was a success in terms of shot down bombers, but the Intruders suffered between 10% and 20% of losses, and their kill ratio was far less than above Germany.

The key here is that the Allied could replace any losses suffered during a German success (the raid on Corsica only stopped the raids by B-25s for some days, the Gisela operation did not stop it at all), while German could not replace all crews and aircraft.

This is exactly my point, some gentlemen suggest small group of German aircraft flew low level all the way from France to UK without being detected, finding the airbase and hit the target, caused seriouse losses most of time, it was complete beyond the WWII navigation technology and sound like a video game to me

[Kutscha]

Originally Posted by Brian Bines

A 'What If' that I have is if Steinbock had not been launched and the bomber force been built up on operations in the south or east , would then a rapid redeployment west have had a very serious effect on the Invasion. Another is that why did not the Luftwaffe attack US escorts at a much earlier stage of a raid when the P-51's were heavily loaded with fuel and ammo. loss of drop tanks would have affected long range potential. In such a case the Me110/410's SturmGroups etc. might have had more kills over Germany,

Brian Bines

Brian wasn't the first leg escorting done by P-47s? P-51s would then take over the escorting when the P-47s had to turn back.

So mars, how did the British manage to attack German airfields at night?

[mars]

Originally Posted by Kutscha

So mars, how did the British manage to attack German airfields at night?

Mass and repeat area bombing, night time bombing was not about accuracy in WWII era.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Kutscha

Brian wasn't the first leg escorting done by P-47s? P-51s would then take over the escorting when the P-47s had to turn back.

So mars, how did the British manage to attack German airfields at night?

Kutscha is correct. For example during the battle over Munich on 24 April, 1944, the 355th and 357th FG picked up target escort just north of Augsburg.

Typically a Brunswick range penetration would get target escort from Dummer Lake inbound and out, etc.

The tactic would have occasionally worked but the 8th AF had a fair amount of discipline in parceling out the escort flights to attack German fighters. If caught by surprise it is possible that an entire section of 8 would drop tanks and turn to the LW fighters. For a small attacking flight however, only one and perhaps two flights would be sent after them.

Only a very large force would impact an entire squadron or group - and would be difficult to escape unscathed.

[Nokose]

On the subject of attacking bombers, I've often wondered why the Germans didn't copy the Russian rockets fired from their fighters and Il-2. They probably had examples and how they worked. They could have modified the design for attacking bombers even in 1943. The shot gun effect even with just breaking up the box would have made it easier to get the bombers.

[Andy Fletcher]

Originally Posted by mars

Mass and repeat area bombing, night time bombing was not about accuracy in WWII era.

Mars,

I believe Kutscha was talking about the very effective intruder operations carried out by the RAF over Luftwaffe nightfighter bases.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

[Andy Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Nokose

On the subject of attacking bombers, I've often wondered why the Germans didn't copy the Russian rockets fired from their fighters and Il-2. They probably had examples and how they worked. They could have modified the design for attacking bombers even in 1943. The shot gun effect even with just breaking up the box would have made it easier to get the bombers.

Hi Nokose,

What about the R4M rockets, though I don't think they entered service until late 44.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher