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  #11  
Old 4th May 2005, 22:32
Vinman Vinman is offline
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Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?

Hi Denes,

I know that here in Canada, the RCAF included shares in the total score of the pilot. So, as you can see, I am still reluctant to believe that the Luftwaffe's Pilots did not have shared kills in their total. Aerial combat, with many planes in the sky, could be very confusing to say the least.
Vinman
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  #12  
Old 4th May 2005, 22:49
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?

Vinman

It simply means that the German pilots were not credited with shared victories. If several pilots have fired at the same aircraft (and noticed the fact), only one of them received credit. Thus it is not possible to say how many of Hartmann's victories were shared ones.
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  #13  
Old 4th May 2005, 23:08
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George Hopp George Hopp is offline
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Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?

As I recall, the matter of unshared victories is briefly mentioned in Heinz Knoke's autobiography, in which, I believe, he mentions shooting down a bomber earlier damaged by a friend. I cannot remember who received credit for the a/c but if you have the book "I flew for the Fuhrer" and compare it against the victories detailed on his Internet site, it should give you an idea.

As to sharing victories, weren't 5 Canadians given shares of an Me 262 they all took shots at?
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  #14  
Old 4th May 2005, 23:59
Tom Semenza Tom Semenza is offline
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One claim per kill exceptions

Some exceptions I have seen to the general rule of only one claim being credited per aircraft shot down: when the gunner in a multi-seat aircraft was credited with an "Abschuss" it seems that the pilot was also given credit in some instances, particularly in the Nachtjagd. Also in the Zestörer unit covering the Atlantic (V./KG 40 , later I./ZG 1) shared claims appear to have been awarded to two or more pilot's (c.f. Chris Goss in "Bloody Biscay" and Tony Wood's claims lists.)

Tom
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  #15  
Old 5th May 2005, 02:07
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George Hopp George Hopp is offline
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Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?

Oh boy, I managed to get just about everything wrong in my previous posting on Heinz Knoke's victory. In fact, on reading the book and checking the Heinz Knoke website, this is what happened: The date was 5 Mar 42, and Heinz Knoke had managed to sneak above a PR Spitfire, and score damaging hits on it. But, suddenly his guns stopped firing. The Spitfire had slowed down but was still flying, and his smoke trail is becoming thinner. So a friend, Dieter Gerhand, coming into view, said, "Then let me finish him, Heinz." And, so he did, with the pilot managing to bail out. In addition to his joy in seeing the pilot survive, Heinz Knoke noted, "This is my first combat victory in the air." But, Dieter Gerhard was given sole credit for the victory.
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Old 5th May 2005, 03:04
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is offline
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Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinman
Hi Denes,

I know that here in Canada, the RCAF included shares in the total score of the pilot. So, as you can see, I am still reluctant to believe that the Luftwaffe's Pilots did not have shared kills in their total. Aerial combat, with many planes in the sky, could be very confusing to say the least.
Vinman
Hi,

I know of one example of a Luftwaffe pilot having a shared victory. A pilot from I./J.G. 2 who flew in the Mediterranean theatre in 1944 began the campaign with 3.5 victories, and ended it with 5.5. Obviously he had gained a shared victory in France in 1943 or 1944.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

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  #17  
Old 5th May 2005, 08:47
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Csaba B. Stenge Csaba B. Stenge is offline
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Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?

Well, strictly, the Luftwaffe pilots had shared victories, but these panes were claimed individually as full kills. I know many examples against the US planes, when the same bombers were claimed some pilots (sometimes it was confirmed to for one as HSS, another as e.V. but as a full kill and even for a thid as a full kill also)

In some cases, that German and Hungarian fighters attacked the same US bomber Groups. In Hungarian side, for the Hungarian fighters, some bombers were confirmed as "collaboration with" German figters (on the same engagements, the Germans claimed these planes always as full kills to themselves and never mentioned the Hungarians - another example, which shows well, that the Hungarian claiming and confirming system was much more strict, than the German one)
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  #18  
Old 5th May 2005, 08:48
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Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád
For example, in the Rumanian air force (ARR), shared victories counted as a full victory for every pilot, who took part in destroying that particular airplane in air or on ground, although the fighter squadron/group tally raised only with one.
As I know, this is the straight way from WWI Allies tradition, when each shared victoy counted as a full victory for every British, American, Russian etc pilot of group fighted with enemy planes.
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  #19  
Old 5th May 2005, 09:02
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Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MB
As I know, this is the straight way from WWI Allies tradition, when each shared victoy counted as a full victory for every British, American, Russian etc pilot of group fighted with enemy planes.
I guess, you are right (and it happened few times with some Hugarian claims in 1944 also)
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  #20  
Old 5th May 2005, 16:01
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)

Contrary to what has been said in this thread, shared victories were more often credited to full victories to the aces rather than to their wingmen. I have read more often German pilots complaining their claims were rejected to give credits to unit or Schwarm leaders than pilots saying their leader let them a victory credit.

At least in some cases, when Germans pilots claimed numerous victories and a smaller number of wrecks was found, the pilots awarded with kills were the ones having the higher scores, the other seeing their claim rejected (happens to Crump of JG 26 at the start of his combat experience).

Most shared victories are against bombers. German principle was to give the credit of the victory to the pilot who damaged the plane enough to make if break of the formation (HSS victory). The final destruction of the isolated damaged bomber (e.V.) was in principle not counted as a victory (but gave points for medals award). In real life, claims were often awarded for both types of claims, as American heavy bombers were able to fly for a long distance even with heavy damage.

As for the record for shares, during the Phoney War, a Ju52 was shot down over the French-German frontier by 11 French pilots. Every of this pilot was accorded a victory (each for 1/11 of a Ju52).

Regarding the score of Experten and propaganda, it is propable that all claims of these guys were accepted (and celebrated). The German confirmation processus may last more than one year, while the news abouth these "stars" should be used at once. On the other hand, I don't think that German newspapers gave individual scores of pilots during air battles, even if they will show celebrations for 100th, 200th and so on victories.
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