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Pre-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation Please use this forum to discuss Military and Naval Aviation before the Second World War.

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  #11  
Old 28th May 2020, 22:24
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Mystery Spad?

Well,


Ideally now the sensible thing to do would be to ask on a French forum if they can identify the machine. Unfortunately Aeroforums does not permit links to ebay so I may have to try something else.


Regards,


Clint
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  #12  
Old 28th May 2020, 22:43
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Mystery Spad?

Stig,


Well a late productiondate doesn't seem to rule out a relatively low number. Here's a photo of the S.20 and it appears to be numbered S.848:


https://www.aviafrance.com/aviafranc...ION=0&MOTCLEF=


Regards,


Clint
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  #13  
Old 28th May 2020, 23:13
jschreiber jschreiber is offline
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Re: Mystery Spad?

Hello

Well, with his rotary engine, I would say Spad S 34-2, traîner built at about 150 exemplars just after the war.

https://www.aviafrance.com/spad-s-34...france-133.htm

Regards
Jean Schreiber
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  #14  
Old 28th May 2020, 23:49
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Mystery Spad?

Hi Jean,


Awesome. Thank you. So can you tell me was a new different numbering system introduced at some stage. I refer to S.901 for the S.34 and S.848 for the S.20 I linked to while machines produced by Spad earlier had much higher numbers, in the case of the last listing on http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escad...ciete_SPAD.htm S.18869?


Regards,


Clint
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  #15  
Old 29th May 2020, 10:18
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
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Re: Mystery Spad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jschreiber View Post
Hello

Well, with his rotary engine, I would say Spad S 34-2, traîner built at about 150 exemplars just after the war.

https://www.aviafrance.com/spad-s-34...france-133.htm

Regards
Jean Schreiber
Thanks Jean
Always nice when someone manage to hit the nail and not like me keep missing it over and over again...

At least I can claim ½ a point (trainer) but just did not believe in it.
Congrats Clint. It was postwar after all!!

These early postwar SPAD types and their SFA numbers create a bit of a problem. I don't know when SFA ceased to be (or at least stopped handing out serial numbers). I don't know when Aeronautique Militaire started to use the manufacturers construction numbers as their own serial numbers.

At some point, perhaps right at the end of WW 1 (?), French manufacturers began to implement what I call "short numbers" as against their previous use of "long numbers", ie their cumulative construction numbers. We can see this clearly in the civil register and also painted on the physical aircraft. At some point a decision must have been made to discard the former SFA style of numbering. Those aircraft already numbered kept them, but new aircraft began to use the new system.

I am still pretty certain that the digits we see, both on the type XX and 34-2 (not to be confused with model 34!), are SFA numbers. They seem to fit in quite nicely in the Albert Denis range as listed on his site.
The earliest SPAD XX serial I have is S.795 (photo) and the highest is S.859 (photo) a range which covers some 65 of the 95 built for France.

Since I have only seen this one photo of a type 34-2 I cannot say how those allegedly 150 fit in.Would be nice with some hard facts regarding the type and hopefully some more photos....with SFA numbers in place...

Cheers
Stig
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  #16  
Old 29th May 2020, 12:23
jschreiber jschreiber is offline
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Re: Mystery Spad?

Hello
You have another one here :
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/LIV1938-Phot...EAAOSw1IhcNOOQ


Without old SFA number, but with a new, more chronological number, type specific. This new numbering was introduced for the purchases of new types, starting 1920 (don’t ask me for the precise date !).
The SFA numbering is a bit nightmarish and never full deciphered... Ranges of numbers were allocated for each manufacturer, and I suppose that the Spads built by SPAD had not exhausted the 1-999 initial range in 1918 and therefore numbers at the high end of that range were used for prototypes or small batches. No wonder if the bulk batches of Spad 7 or 13 are high above the 999, they belong to purchases at other manufacturers that SPAD (they were a dozen at least), or at SPAD with a batch too big for using the remaining numbers in the 1-999 range at the time of the purchase.

Regards
Jean
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  #17  
Old 29th May 2020, 12:30
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Mystery Spad?

Thanks Jean,


That adds some clarity and tends to support Stig's initial post as far as the SFA allocating numbers is concerned. Also useful information as in future if I see a three figure number on a Spad type in future I may well now decide to look at Post war machines first. I take it from your comments about SFA nightmares no book has been released which is informative on wartime Spad serials ?


Regards,


Clint
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  #18  
Old 29th May 2020, 15:23
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
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Re: Mystery Spad?

Hi Jean

I have to differ from your assessment of the "new" SPAD 34-2 photo.
It is not S.88 but S.88x, you cannot see the last digit.

As far as I am concerned it fits perfectly into the SFA range in the mid S.700 to S.1000 range.

With regard to companies that built SPAD fighters during WW 1 there are at least 15 known. There were over 7000 SPAD VII/XIII (and XII/XVII) built and no there is no list dealing with all of them.
Most likely the first S.VII was S.108 (S.110 is known) and the highest number so far in the early SPAD production was S.758. There is actually also a report of a SPAD XIII having No S.848, but I have never seen that verified.

Thus, next comes S.1001 and up leaving a gap of some 240 aircraft.

As can be seen at least some were used for the numbering of S.XX fighters and S.34-2 trainers. I have no idea why these numbers, seemingly on purpose, were left out by SFA in 1916-17 and re-allocated in the 1918-20 time span.

Cheers
Stig
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  #19  
Old 29th May 2020, 18:53
jschreiber jschreiber is offline
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Re: Mystery Spad?

Hello Stig
You’re right. The last digit could be a 2. It’s time for me to buy sharper lenses !
Regards
Jean
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  #20  
Old 29th May 2020, 20:06
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
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Re: Mystery Spad?

No worries Jean

We are in this together and "patching up" French aviation history is fascinating indeed. Those of us who are interested can do with all the help we can get/give.

So hopefully we will get more help/thoughts from you as well.

Take Care
Stig
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