Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 7th December 2019, 19:06
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,055
focusfocus is on a distinguished road
help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

Hello ALL

According to C.Shores(Typhoon/Tempest story)

A Typhoon (609°Sqd.,F/O Charles Rowland) WOULD HAVE BEEN shot down by Lt.Heckmann (JG1)
I have not found any claims today by Heckmann,nor a Typhoon in the list of Jagdkorps/L.fl.3.

Others mystery that day:
4 P-47 claimed around 12h.00(including 3 by Rodel and officially approuved by the RLM)....P-47 unknowns.

1 Mustang of 2°Sqd (RAF) shot down by Fw.190 north of Paris early morning according his pilot (Flt.Lt Tan Kay Hai,a Chinese pilot in the RAF!)....no german claim found.

One of YOU KNOWS MORE?

thanks in advance
michel
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 7th December 2019, 20:20
KM1957 KM1957 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 318
KM1957 is on a distinguished road
Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

Only two Ninth Air Force P-47's were lost this date due to FW 190's. Both were 514 Fighter Squadron, 406 Fighter Group. Lt. Levitt C. Beck went down near Havelu (eventually captured and died as a POW) and Lt. Edward R. Gaudet was lost south of Dreux (KIA). No Eighth Air Force P-47's were lost this day.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 7th December 2019, 22:02
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,840
kaki3152 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

Levitt C. Beck Jr. wrote a book about his experiences. It is titled "Fighter Pilot" and was published posthumously in 1946. Found a copy at a swap meet, torn DJ.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 7th December 2019, 23:06
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,055
focusfocus is on a distinguished road
Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

P-47 of 406°FG correspond to the claims of I/JG2 (around 8h.00)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 8th December 2019, 12:03
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,810
Stig Jarlevik will become famous soon enough
Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by focusfocus View Post
Hello ALL
According to C.Shores(Typhoon/Tempest story)
A Typhoon (609°Sqd.,F/O Charles Rowland) WOULD HAVE BEEN shot down by Lt.Heckmann (JG1)
I have not found any claims today by Heckmann,nor a Typhoon in the list of Jagdkorps/L.fl.3.
michel
Michel

Shores/Thomas use the word possibly (not would have!) and most likely used what was available to them back then during the late 1980s.
Looking in Prien/Rodeike's Vol 2 of their JG 1/JG 11 book, we can find a Fw Heckman claiming a Typhoon on the 27th (not 29th) at 17.30H in the Caen area. This is no doubt Günther Heckman, who according to Johannes Mathews was in fact an Obfw at the time, and still in 7./JG 51 when making his claim. P/R says it was his 15th claim while M is more modest and says it was his 13th claim. Heckman later joined 7./JG 1 in 1944

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 8th December 2019, 12:34
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 11,193
Chris Goss has a spectacular aura aboutChris Goss has a spectacular aura about
Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

I have this:
The final day of operations for June 1944 came on the 29th. Seven Typhoons took off to attack a railway junction at Ste Maske Couches which they did successfully. However, what was described as confusion ensued on the return flight and pilots had to land at B.4 (Bény-sur-Mer) and B.6 (Coulombs) to refuel. It was not until they had all arrived back at Hurn that it was realised that Fg Off Charles Rowland was missing. It is believed that he was a victim of Flak and crashed near Mézidon and five days later, the Squadron was informed that the remains of his aircraft had been found and that he had been killed and his body had been buried at Ste Aubin. It was a sad ending to June 1944 for the Squadron.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 8th December 2019, 13:44
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,055
focusfocus is on a distinguished road
Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

I had understood the NUANCE between possibility and WOULD HAVE BEEN.

C.Shores "mixed brushes" between june 27 and 29.
"Problem" solved,even if the 27 Heckmann claim is subject to interrogation (Caen for Heckmann and Laval for C.Shores (609°sqd F/O R.Holmes:sdb by Fw 190)

Remain the 3 P-47 approuved!! to Rodel (95.96.97.),knowing that no allied aircraft crashed in the region of Evreux/Louvier according himself.

Probably a "trick of magic"!....I'm kidding!
Michel
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10th December 2019, 18:37
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 11,193
Chris Goss has a spectacular aura aboutChris Goss has a spectacular aura about
Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

What I have on Holmes:


On June 27, 1944, the new Commanding Officer Sqn Ldr Manu Geerts led six aircraft on an armed recce in the Le Mans/Laval area. One aircraft suffered engine failure on take-off but managed to land safely and the remainder went on to attack Parennes railway station (east of Laval) but when attacking another target at Sillé on the way back from Parennes, they were bounced by three Fw 190s. Flt Eric Roberts jettisoned his rockets but could not get his tanks away so quickly turned for home. Flt Sgt Roland Ashworth got onto the tail of one only to have another two on his tail so he dived for the coast at low-level. However, despite 'Spud' Holmes being the first to spot the Fw 190s when he was about a mile behind the rest of the Squadron, nothing more was heard from him and no aircraft was seen to crash. It is believed that he had become the seventh air combat victory for Oblt Georg Hiebl of 1./JG 11and Holmes was killed when his Typhoon crashed near Alençon. Hiebl was the only German pilot to claim an Allied aircraft at the time Holmes was shot down and in the approximate location
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10th December 2019, 23:19
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,055
focusfocus is on a distinguished road
Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

Hi Chris

I have a different idea about the winner of Holmes.
According to the Jagdkorps/Lfl.3,Hiebl has claimed a P-47 ,05 ost UT-UU,what's corresponds to Caen/Carpiquet. and not Alençon.
The distance Carpiquet/Alençon is 89 km:too far.....no "logic" that Hiebl mentions in his report:Carpiquet if the fight took place toward Alençon

On the other hand,his colleague of Staffel,Fw.Norbert Schucking claimed a P-47 (misidentification as Hiebl,it's likely) 04 ost BA (10 km N Alençon).
The Typhoon of Holmes crashed Sémallé (8 km N Alençon) place of his temporary burial....so ? Schucking winner? fort probable.

The P-47 claimed by Hiebl might be the Typhoon of 438°Sqd(F/Lt Park) shot down SO Caen by Flak ? ....not so sure by Flak!.....Concordant similarities!

Well, hours are different,but hours!
When we see the errors of identifications in general...so hours!
Michel
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces Johannes Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 59 15th May 2023 15:38
Klaus Scheer and Helmut Dahms of NJG 100 markr Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 10 20th February 2021 15:06
Moelders vs Galland vs Wick Nick Hector Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 26 3rd November 2018 14:26
Percentage of Verifiable Victories of Various Aces –Updates & Recommendations Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 25 9th March 2010 03:39
Percentage of Verifiable Victories of Various Aces –Updates & Recommendations Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 30th September 2006 10:05


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:51.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net