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  #11  
Old 11th January 2009, 22:08
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: Flak/AA - Why do we not research it ?

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Originally Posted by Martin Gleeson View Post
For years the subject of research - or rather the lack of - into Flak/AA claims and victories has puzzled me.
...
Is anyone working on such research at present ?
Hello!

Yes. Finnish AAA against Soviet 7th Air Army - 7 VA - during the Svir-Petrozavodsk operation late June - August, 1944. Olonets area, Karelia. Artillery was almost the only anti-aircraft defence available for Finns there, the handful of fighters were mostly used for reconnaissance.

Interest for the subject is pretty low in every direction. Been doing the work for my own personal fun for three-four years. Not systematically nor very actively, last year was pretty idle.

Much of the text by Rastrenin makes sense compared what I have learned from the archive material.

Cheers,
Kari

Last edited by Kari Lumppio; 12th January 2009 at 07:33. Reason: Spelling
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  #12  
Old 12th January 2009, 14:58
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Jaap Woortman Jaap Woortman is offline
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Re: Flak/AA - Why do we not research it ?

Flak/AAA - Why do we not research it ?

Are we? The Dutch Study Group Airwar 1939-1945 has published at the site of the NIMH a survey of all known crashes in the Netherlands. In a second phase of this project we will go in more detail into every crash. Also for crashes caused by Flak.

For myself I have looked into the organization of Flak units in the Northern part of the Netherlands. The counties Groningen, Friesland and Drenthe and all the Dutch Frisian Islands. A very interesting but also complex matter. As far as I know now all kinds of units were involved in the Flak business. At the Noordzee we have the Kriegsmarine with its Vorpostenboote and Flakschiffe. At the Frisan Islands the Marineflakabteilungen(MFA) but also the Marineartillerieabteilungen(MAA) with their long range canons, also equipped with small caliber Flak for the defense of the MAA positions. These belong to the Kriegsmarine and at the Waddenzee we have had Fähre with Flak. Most probably also Kriegsmarine and at the IJsselmeer Flak of the Wasserschützpolizei. This Wasserschützpolizei was equipped with confiscated ships equipped with small caliber Flak and belonged to the SS. At the harbors at Lemmer, Harlingen and Delfzijl the Kriegsmarine had Flak positions and also at important locks in the canals between these harbors. Like in Groningen. Along the Eems and Dollard were also Kriegsmarine Flak positions for the defense of the city of Emden and it’s harbor.
The Luftwaffe had Flak at the airfields Leeuwarden, Eelde and Steenwijk/Havelte and at the radarposts Schlei, Tiger, Eisbär, Löwe, Gazelle and Marder. The Luftwaffe was also involved in the Eisenbahn Flak and the RAD Flak was incorporated in the Luftwaffe in 1944. Then we have the Flak of Heer units and of the Waffen-SS. Also the Dutch Waffen-SS. And then we have for the defense of the communication posts for the SS the Reichspost Flak to make it complete. So everyone, except for the Reichspost, was present in this small part of occupied Europe. That Flak was a popular business makes it also difficult for us to research.
But we will see.


Jaap Woortman
Secr. Study Group Airwar 1939-1945.
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  #13  
Old 12th January 2009, 20:37
edwest edwest is offline
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Re: Flak/AA - Why do we not research it ?

I'm sure everyone's seen photos of the larger flak guns with kill ring markings on the barrel. I've seen at least a few photos of a flak unit burning their documents at the end of the war. Now why would a flak unit do that? I've also seen a few photos of naval ships, type unknown, that would have painted silhouettes of Allied aircraft shot down and a date on a wall.

It seems to me that a check of B-17 Flying Fortress Story by Freeman could isolate shoot downs due to flak but pairing them with a particular unit would prove problematic. In Nachtjaeger, Volume 1, by Williams, a Nightfighter pilot gives an account of a flak unit claiming the shooting down of a British plane by his aircraft over his protest, and even though the crew saw no flak bursts in the vacinity and a bullet was removed from the posterior of the only survivor. To what command or authority did flak units report their shoot downs?


Ed
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  #14  
Old 12th January 2009, 21:01
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SES SES is offline
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Re: Flak/AA - Why do we not research it ?

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Originally Posted by edwest View Post
I've seen at least a few photos of a flak unit burning their documents at the end of the war. Now why would a flak unit do that?

Ed
Because Ed they were ordered to do so. This is one reason why so many Luftwaffe records are missing.
Also please see:

http://www.br-online.de/wissen-bildu.../quellentexte/

bregds
SES
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  #15  
Old 12th January 2009, 22:05
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Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Re: Flak/AA - Why do we not research it ?

Hi, guys.

Well, to answer the first question asked, I simply do not know.

But there ceratinly is an enormous number of files at the BA regarding claims from the Flak units...

Regards,
Andreas B
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  #16  
Old 12th January 2009, 22:27
Doug Stankey Doug Stankey is offline
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Re: Flak/AA - Why do we not research it ?

Larry deZeng sent me his comments on this topic which the readership should find enlightening:

"I have been researching the Flakwaffe for over 30 years, albeit from an organizational, command and operational point of view that includes unit histories. I found that the Flak Abschuss-Berichten in the so-called "Claims" microfilms are a nightmare to try and work with. The entries were made by the numerous Luftwaffenhelferinnen in the Luftwaffenpersonamt (LP 5, I think) in various pencil colours. Some of these ladies wrote in Sütterlin while others had some even more difficult handwriting styles. If that isn't enough, the microfilming was done between August 1944 and February 1945 using wartime film of dubious quality that today is very badly faded and extremely difficult to work with because the lighter pencil colours are no longer visible. Also, the Abschuss location entered on the log sheets is either illegible or given in a peculiar grid coding system that is largely unknown to most.

In Signatur RL 5 at BA-MA Freiburg, there is a collection of 506 folders totaling some 12 linear meters (nearly 40 feet!) of Flak Abschuss-Berichten that also includes details on the location, strength and subordination relationship of the Flak formations. This would seem to be the motherlode for any researcher wanting to document Flak claims and victories. This rich hoard could then be used in conjunction with the so-called "Luftgau" collections kept in the
U.S. (and British?) National Archives that give details on the investigation of downed Allied aircraft crash sites with frequent reports as to what and who brought the plane down."




Any brave souls out there going to attempt taming this tiger?


DGS

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  #17  
Old 13th January 2009, 02:08
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Flak/AA - Why do we not research it ?

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Originally Posted by Doug Stankey View Post
If that isn't enough, the microfilming was done between August 1944 and February 1945 using wartime film of dubious quality that today is very badly faded and extremely difficult to work with because the lighter pencil colours are no longer visible.
There was similar problem with microfilms containing monthly reports of Polish intel, which were practically unreadable. They were rescued for posterity few years ago, being scanned, so perhaps here is the chance, if the one can convince BAMA to scan original microfilms.
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  #18  
Old 13th January 2009, 08:28
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Csaba B. Stenge Csaba B. Stenge is offline
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Re: Flak/AA - Why do we not research it ?

If you can (or willing to) visit BA-MA, you will find, that the genuine materials are more readable, than the microfilms/fiches. Many of the German microfilms are in bad quality only because of the low copying quality.

Incidentally I do research the AA artillery and Air Forces both, these are unseparable.
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