Monoplane ID Needed

[musec04]

Hello,


Currently on ebay there is a photo of a monoplane at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Flugzeugbild...0AAOSwlupfsRgE


Can anyone identify the machine shown? Initially I thought the aircraft was German, but looking again at the personnel in the second photo with the Nieuport I now think they're Russian.


Regards,


Clint

[bearoutwest]

Hi Clint,


Possibly an early Morane Saulnier H (or the German manufactured version Pfalz E.1). Bigger than the Fokker Eindekker, and with the split control wire posts aft of the main undercarriage.


Regards,
...geoff

[musec04]

Hello Geoff,


Thanks for the reply.When I saw the photo I thought that the designer had been at a minimum,inspired by Morane and as far as the front end goes I'm in total agreement with you. And the undercarriage looks very MS.Its just that to my eyes the tail looks a little different from anything I've seen on a MS machine... Maybe a Russian built derivative? Edit Having said that, it does look a bit like the tail on this MS Type L: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morane...C_markings.jpg


Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

100% Russian Clint

I can only see a general resemblance to the Morane in this case.

The nose is quite distinctive, having what looks like a longer "snout", including a quite pronounced "hump" for the pilot. The fin/rudder looks sort of triangular with the actual rudder bulging out a bit.
Also the undercarriage looks more strongly built than "normal"

The big problem is that is seems very much operational, so perhaps a one off design made outside of any production center?

I also tried the Masslov book, but nothing really stands out.
Possibly a derivative of the designs made by Tereshchenko (without being actually his).

No I have no really good answer to this one Clint

Cheers
Stig

[Col Bruggy]

Hello,

A photograph of the same (two-seater) aircraft appears in the following publication:

Russian Aviation Colours 1909-1922 Book I
Khairulin,Marat & Boris Stepanov
Sandomierz:Stratus/Mushroom Model Publications,2015.
p.24.

The caption reads:

Morane-Saulnier of the Officers Aviation School Aerial Fleet Division. OVF pennant is attached under the wing, 1913. (From the collection of G. F. Petrov).

Col.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Pretty stunning ID if you ask me.

I cannot locate a single Morane-Saulnier which looks like this.
If someone used a Morane as a basis for this one, it certainly has been heavily modified.

Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hello,


Thanks for all the replies so far. following extensive/excessive internet searches, I think we can say that the plane is a Morane Saulnier Type G :


https://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot...airplanes.html




Davilla and Soltan ,mention three trainer versions built in the Russian Empire : with the Kachinsky undercarriagee;built by Slyusarenko; modified by a lieutenat Fride. Possibly the aircraft shown is one of these variants?


Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Clint/Col/Geoff

Finally got access to my Morane book by Lacaze

Yes it is a Morane alright but not a type G. This version was called Type VR and WR (it evolved from the even more obscure Le Triplace de Rebikoff.

The Russian Navy bought four Type WR and one Type VR.
One photo in the book clearly shows the extra nose section I mentioned before and also the added fin. It also has the strengthened undercarriage.
Except possibly for some prototypes this model was not used in France at all.
The listed Morane c/n all went to the Russian Navy.

Sorry about my earlier ramblings....

Cheers
Stig

[bearoutwest]

Coming from an aero-engineering background, I have a great admiration in the design thinking of the early pioneers. In a way they were making the ultimate D.I.Y. kit-planes.

- don't like wing warping; OK, let's straighten the spar, add strengtheners and screw on some aileron hinges.
- engine not powerful enough; hey no problem, here's one with 50% more horsepower I found earlier.
- oops, I've bend the rudder; no biggie; here's a rudder from same family, let's see how this works.
- OK, the general wants a triplane; hey, let's add an extra set of wings to this Albatros biplane.

It does lead to difficulties in trying to identify aircraft in photos. (Though not saying my jokes above, all apply to this plane.)


Stig,
I have a soft spot for the Morane Saulniers. What is this book that you refer to? Was this Morane Saulnier VR/WR designed as a two-seater; or was the nose extension to balance the weight of the extra second seat aft of the pilot?

...geoff

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hi Geoff

The book is easy, that is Morane-Saulnier, ses Avions, ses projets, by Henri Lacaze published by Lela Presse

As far as I can judge (my French is basically non-existant) it does not state specifically it was designed as a two-seater, only that the outcome was that.

As mentioned before it was based upon the aircraft (c/n 29) built for the Russian military attaché in Paris, Rebikoff (but read ordered by the Russian Government). That aircraft was a three-seater.
If the Russian's follow up order for the, by then named type, (VR/WR) stipulated two seats is not stated, but I feel it is pretty likely.

As for the inserted nose section, yes I have also thought about that, and I also go along your thinking. The normal Morane two-seater was a pretty close-seating machine, while with the VR/WR we have a much more spread out crew (pilot in the rear) and a very clear tandem seating. So, yes, very much a question of balance.

Cheers
Stig