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Old 21st February 2021, 23:47
Heuser Heuser is offline
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15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944

Gentlemen,

I am seaching for an P-51 loss on 18th of July 1944 during the Mission to Memmingen.

The "Air Crashes by Date"-List has a P-51D-5-NA, Serial No. 44-13381 W of Tutzing near Lake Starnberg (Starnberger See), which mateches exactly with the claim of Uffz. Wilhelm Krejci, 6./JG 27 (who was also killed in this engagement).

There is no matching loss nor a MACR of a P-51D of 31.FG or 52.FG on this day in the regarding area, and all other P-51D-losses known to me are located in Austria (44-13450) or Italy (44-13495).

Any ideas?

Regards,


Heuser
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Old 22nd February 2021, 01:42
Russell Russell is offline
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944

Hello Heuser

This is a problem I have been working on for the future Strategic Volume of Med Air War series. What I have to date is

4th FS52nd FG P-51 dove on enemy aircraft at 47 56N 11 21 E near Allmanshausen on the Starnberger See, on pulling out at 5000ft was seen to rip the starboard wing off managed to bale out; 1/Lt Raymond H Irvine, Jr POW

Note Allmanshausen is a on the other side of the lake North east from Tutzing. What I have yet to find out is what serial number of the P-51 Irvine was in, and your listing of it being 44-13381 is a good lead if it can be confirmed, nor have I found a tme for the loss, but I suspect it is 1055 to 1100. Nor can I tie ripping the wings off with whatever Krejci may have done, but thats the fun of doing the research.

Cheers

Russell
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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:03
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Trendle Trendle is offline
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944

Good Morning Heuser,

52nd F.G. / 4th F.S. / North American P-51 D-5-NA Mustang / # 44-13381 / Escort for Bombers to Friedrichshafen / Dogfight with Bf 109 - Unteroffizier Krejci - 6./JG 27 / Crash west of Tutzing, west of Starnberger See (Bayern) - Germany / 2nd Lieutenant Raymond H. Irvine Jr. / Pow - KG - Stalag Luft 1 Barth

All the Best

Fred
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Old 22nd February 2021, 13:22
Ted51abcdk Ted51abcdk is offline
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944

Good morning gentlemen:
The Individual Aircraft Record card (IARc) shows 44-13381 as MIA on 18 July 1944. All the other losses for this day are accounted for in any P-51D-5NA. There does not seem to be any good explanation as to why no MACR was filed for this incident. Hope that this helps a little bit. Ted51
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Old 22nd February 2021, 17:33
Heuser Heuser is offline
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944

Gentlemen,

great - thank you very much for your help!

Russell: time ist given with 10.50 in the "Air crashes..." list as well as Krejcis claim in MFB 6/C 2027/II, location is "W Tutzing" and "1 km W Tutzing" respectively.

This loss is also mentioned without detail in one of the reports attached to MACR 6980 of B-17G 42-102927 (483.BG, 815.BS).

Both P-51 of 332.FG were shot down by 12./JG 3 and Charles O. Herman (508.FS) most probably by Uffz. Hans Hahn, 3./JG 300, all around the same time.

"...fun of doing the research": Sometimes I am rather done of doing the research...

Regards,


Heuser
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Old 22nd February 2021, 19:32
Rottler Rottler is offline
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944

Hello Heuser,

a quote from your post #1: …and all other P-51 D-losses known to me are located in Austria (44-13450) …
No, not this plane. According to the German casualty documents (ME 1632) the crash time was 10.35 hrs on the Rantscher Weiher near Kohlgrub (since 1948 Bad Kohlgrub), 9 km west of Murnau, 8 km north of Oberammergau. The pilot 2nd Lt Leo Martin Walz was taken prisoner near the crashplace.

In the ME 1631 file is documented: the 44-13381 crashed at 10.50 hrs 1 km west of Tutzing, south of the Taubinger Straße on the Bareislgraben, damage 95%.

Another 31st FG loss concerned the Mustang 43-6854: loss time 11.00 hrs 2 km northwest of Grafenaschau, 5 km southwest of Murnau, 6 km northeast of Oberammergau (casualty no. ME 1672). The pilot 1st Lt Charles O Herman (308th FS, not 508th FS – see your post #5) was found dead on 24 July 1944 (ME 1589).

Regards
Leo
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Old 22nd February 2021, 19:53
RSwank RSwank is offline
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944

There is also a mention of Raymond Irvine on a German page which lists 9 POWs transferred to Oberursel on July 21. The German number for his crash was listed there as KSU 1631.

https://www.fold3.com/image/29402886

The page is stuck in MACR 7415 for B-17 42-31583 (see page 39): https://catalog.archives.gov/id/91033122
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Old 22nd February 2021, 21:15
Heuser Heuser is offline
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rottler View Post
No, not this plane. According to the German casualty documents (ME 1632) the crash time was 10.35 hrs on the Rantscher Weiher near Kohlgrub (since 1948 Bad Kohlgrub), 9 km west of Murnau, 8 km north of Oberammergau. The pilot 2nd Lt Leo Martin Walz was taken prisoner near the crashplace.

In the ME 1631 file is documented: the 44-13381 crashed at 10.50 hrs 1 km west of Tutzing, south of the Taubinger Straße on the Bareislgraben, damage 95%.

Another 31st FG loss concerned the Mustang 43-6854: loss time 11.00 hrs 2 km northwest of Grafenaschau, 5 km southwest of Murnau, 6 km northeast of Oberammergau (casualty no. ME 1672). The pilot 1st Lt Charles O Herman (308th FS, not 508th FS – see your post #5) was found dead on 24 July 1944 (ME 1589).

Leo
Good evening Leo,

thanks for the hint - I thought both locations "Unterer Lettenwald, 2 km NW Grafenaschau" and "Rantscher Weiher near Kohlgrub" were about the same a/c - because pretty close.

An Austian secondary source has the Obersteig near Imst as location for Walz (Thomas Albrich: „Luftkrieg über der Alpenfestung 1943-1945: Der Gau Tirol-Vorarlberg und die Operationszone Alpenvorland", p. 253)

Regrads,

Heuser
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Old 22nd February 2021, 21:55
Rottler Rottler is offline
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944

Hello Heuser,

according to the MACR 7071 documents after the escort mission to Friedrichshafen Lt Walz was last sighted in the area east of Imst (coordinates 47°15‘ N, 10°50‘ E), pursuing an enemy aircraft at 15,000 ft. But the actuel crash place was near Kohlgrub.

Regards
Leo
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Old 23rd February 2021, 01:22
Russell Russell is offline
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944

Hi all,

Lots of good information here.

I have a question, I have Ogefr Alfred Schwarz of 12./ JG 3 making a claim for a P-51 and the other 12./JG 3 claims being for B-17, who made the second claim for a Mustang?

Given the witness report from the 52nd noted Irvine ripped a wing off, didi he collide with Krejci?

Russell
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