Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44

[kalender1973]

Originally Posted by CJE

Ha! The Germans couldn't tell a La-5 from a La-7.
Do you think they were able to spot that the Yak they were fighting out had no intercooler intake under the nose? That's just another urban legend introduced by William Green.

In some projection it is easy to differ Yak-3 from Yak-9. Yak-3 (and later introduced Yak-9U) has no radio mast being the canopy. But during the fight... I don't belive the german pilots could deal with it :-)

[yogybär]

If pilots would not have been able to identify, why should there have been the order to avoid "Yaks w/o oil cooler" below 5.000m?

Sure not everybody was able to identify, but some at least.

In this context, it is interesting that Lipfert did only notify that he fought a Yak-3 by its very good performance during his first DF with the type.

[CJE]

the order to avoid "Yaks w/o oil cooler" below 5.000m

Where have you seen such an order?

[yogybär]

It is quoted in Lipfert's diary.

EDIT/Correction: It is not in this book. But it is somewhere ...

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hello Nokose, Yogibar and others!
I am following this thread with interest, although I am not an specialist on Eastern Front. These were the claims by Normandie on 17th October ( 14:00h mission ). I am not putting the other claims ( 09:20h mission + 12:00h mission ):
1- Aspirant Pierre Lorillon ( 2 fw 190 ) one S of Gumbinnen the other at Gumbinnen
2- Aspirant Charles Monier ( 1 FW 190 ) S of Gumbinnen
3- Aspirant Marcel Perrin ( 1 Fw 190 ) over or at Stalluponen
The losses for this 14:00h mission: only Aspirant Lorillon that collided with a Fw 190, lost 1,5 meters of his wing and crash landed.
Jean Emonet was shot down by a Bf 109 and wounded near Wirbalis earlier ( 09:29h mission ). He bailed out and was rescued by a Russian Tank Unit. It seems that he was sent for a Moscow´s Hospital, but we do not have an entry date for that.
On the other subject: YES, Challe was flying a YAK 3. Trenkel mentioned a Yak 9 on his report, after he was shot down, but the author ( Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt says that if he was not even able to identify the enemy he was fighting how could he be so sure - "catégorique"? ). Trenkel took off with two other Bf 109 : Fhr Walter Winsdich ( also shot down ) and Lt. August Rieckhoff, both from .2/ JG 52.
The SG unit seems to be either I/SG 1 or I/SG 4, because II/SG 4 only came to the theater of operations on 22nd October. I do not know if II or any Gruppe of SG 3 was, at this time, flew on the 17th around the area we are looking for...( Gumbinnen, Stalluponen, Eydtkunnen ). Anyone has any kind of information about that? It seems that I/ JG 52 moved to Ebenrode on the 15th October and the III/ JG 52 on the 17th to Trakehen. But this is an area for you Experts on Eastern Front...
Hope I have helped with more info...If I find more I will be glad to share with you guys. Sincere and friendly as ever
Adriano

[Nokose]

Adriano, Thank you for providing that information. Hopefully there is some one that has the losses for these units on that day. Also hopefully Yogybaer will be able to post some of those PK reports for dogfights with the Yak 3's. The 18 GIAP reported a total of 10 German aircraft destroyed on the 17th and I guess Groupe Normandie about the same or more.
Thanks again,
Michael

[yogybär]

The PK-article states that Trenkel+Kaczmarek(Windisch)-Pe2 / Yak3-story. Additionally, it mentions another flight by Trenkel & Co later that day, on which 3 Yak3's are killed.

But this cannot be found on the claim list. Sorry, no new information .

[Evgeny Velichko]

Gents:

There is a little mistake it TW lists: we should read not 4:45 but 9:45.

So, Hafner had 2 claims in that combat: Pe-2 and Yak-9 (Emonet). After that he was cought up by NN Yaks.

Challe's claim was at 10 km E of Goumbinen, Schurguponen
http://maps.yandex.ru/-/CBaXR03K

Goumbinen now is Gusev (Гусев), and place in 10 km E of it called Puspern (in late 1800th), later (in early 1900th) - Tublauken/Schweizersfelde. Now it calls Lomovo (Ломово).

Seems, Challe never forgot himself for friendlyfire, when he killed an 12-victory ace Arkhipov of brother-regiment 18 giap (both NN and 18 giap were from 303 iad), and persued each enemy to the end.

Most likely, he engaged Hafner and followed him from 3km to ground level (where YaK-9 was faster and much more maneuvrable then Bf109G-6), and during low-level dogfigt Hafner crashed avoiding Challe's attack.

[Courtois Laurent]

Some additional information found today at Tsamo (Russian archives).
After being parachuted, Emonet was rescued by a Russian aviator himself shot dead: Lieutenant Yakubov from the 135 GBAP. After identifying the regiment and controlled the fats I have searching for the destructive report of the Pe2 (Pilot Ltn KOVAL (dead), navigator ltn YAKUBOV, Radio-Gunner sgt DANILOUCHKIN (wooded) : serial number 8-192,
tIt's crashed down in the medeltrapez (Gradnetz) 25486 or 25495, ie 15 km southeast of Kirbataï. This is in line with the planned flight plan (bombing of Eydtkunen and front to the south of the city). And in the noman's land. The soviet's tank arrrived some tme after the crash.

The report indicates that the aircraft suffered several attacks from 9:49 am. The first fired the left engine, the second injured the gunner. After dropping his bombs on the German trenches the aircraft becoming uncontrollable the crew to the exception of the pilot jumped.
This may explain why there is no claim, since after the attacks the aircraft was consommeed as only damaged.

therefore Jean Enomet was shot down 10 km south-east of Kirbatai and not from Stallupönen or Gumbinen, by Lieutenant Leonhard Färber 3/JG52 at 8h43 (Berlin Time) medeltrapz 25456. (©)

[ZhekaB]

Do you have details how Emonet was shooted down?
AFAIK he was suprised and havn't pointed who shot him down?

And in my opinion clame of Ludwig Strobel at 7:40 looks more relevant to Emonet according to time.