Armée de L'Air - twin engined aircraft nº178

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Dear all,

Am not too familiar with "Armée de L'Air" marking system, but there seems to be several kind of machines with the same number (tactical NUMERO) painted on the fuselage side, hence my question.

Am looking for a possible match of a French twin-engined (may be a Potez-63 or a Bloch 174) machine that carries the Nº 178 (in white) on the fuselage.

It was shot down in mid 1940 (April-May-June) and crashed in Belgium or Northern France.

Those are the sole DATA I do have...nothing more, sadly (wish it carried out the local, date, time, and crew details).

Am aware of a MB-152 fighter that carried out the nº178 (the sole entry on the Search feature of this Board) that actually is more or less linked to my thread. However, this fighter returned back with its Commandant alive and was later scrapped...so, it may not be the machine I am looking for.

Is there a SITE or another place where we can find out more about the Armée de L'Air losses over Belgium or France in mid 1940?

Anyone would have DATA about a twin-engined machine (Armée de L'Air) lost with the numero 178 on the fuselage?

Adriano

[Adriano Baumgartner]

OBS > Number 178 is on BLACK collor...not white as informed previously (bad memory, sorry!).

[rof120]

Hardly a Bloch 174 for only approximately 50 were delivered to units. A twin-engined French AC with so high a number can only be a Potez 63.11 or a LeO 45. The highest number I found for a Pz 63-11 is 857 in Paul Martin's loss lists (book "Invisibles vainqueurs", publ. Yves Michelet 1991) even though less than 800 were produced but other versions (Pz 631 fighter, Pz 633 bomber, Pz 637 recce AC) received numbers in the same series, usually much lower numbers but it seems that there was some amount of mixture, a Pz631 being followed by a 63.11 in the series of numbers and conversely. It SEEMS THAT N° 178 can only be a Potez 63.11.

Perhaps Martin published more mumbers in the 2nd edition "Ils étaient là..." (They Were There…). Too bad my copy is "missing" for the moment.

PS: Internet sites Cocardes - Ciel de gloire
- there are certainly more. "Usual disclaimer"

You'll find a list of Internet sites (not only for 1940) here:

http://www.aerostories.org/~aeroforums/ring/

[Adriano Baumgartner]

MERCI Yves!

[Stig Jarlevik]

I agree it has to be a Potez 63 series of aircraft, but which one?

Only two developments reached the production level of 178

Potex 63-11 No 178 was lost/crashed with GR I/33 on 4 March 1940 when it returned from a recce mission, crew was unharmed.

Potez 631 No 178 belonging to ECN III/13 was shot down by German Flak 17 May 1940 on a ground attack mission. Crew KIA.

Since the wreck shown in the photo certainly does not look like anything you walk away from, I think it is the remains of the 631 mentioned above.

B Rgds
Stig

[rof120]

Both a 63.11 and a 631 having the same production number (178)? I doubt it and think there is an error somewhere (a typo or whatever).

[rof120]

You’re welcome Adrien Jardinier!

Here are a few Potez AC numbers. It really seems that 63.11 and 631 were intermingled in the production (this is what I believed to know and it is confirmed by the few relevant numbers I found in Martin’s lists).

Unfortunately in the lists there are only a few numbers for 631s. N° 146 (Pz 631) and 151 (63.11) are pretty close numbers (a total of about 1,200 AC of the Potez series 63… were made).

N°
173 : 63.11
177 : 63.11 CLOSE TO 178 isn’t it
180 : 63.11 " " " " " " " "
184 : 63.11

114 : Pz 631
146 : Pz 631
151 : Pz 63.11

[Adriano Baumgartner]

STIG

You gave me a NORTH to follow....indeed, there are other 3 pictures alongside this one, and it seems the crew had no chance to save themselves (unless they jumped by parachute before the crash). The area is well wooded with huge trees and some of the wreck crashed on the border of this wood area.

The second option seems a good path....do you happen to have further source of informations so I can try to find books? What were the crew names of this ECN III/13 machine?

THANK YOU immensely

A.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Just googled and found more : https://www.passionair1940.fr/Armee%...C_ECN-3-13.htm

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Quoting from this page: https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=16186.0

The five night fighter units were not a success. They began to fly night operations on 11 May, but there were no successful interceptions during the first week of operations. The French High Command then decided to try and use the aircraft in the increasingly desperate day battle. On 17 May twenty-four Potez 631s from the units based around Paris attempted to attack German columns around Formies. Eighteen aircraft reached the target area, and six were lost, probably all to German flak.

Fourmies do have a very well wooded area alongside, which matches the photographs...and now guess that THANKS to STIG, we got a match...and the crew name...

This is indeed POTEZ 631 (former number X-947) nº 178 from ECN III/13, shot down whilst on a ground mission (attack German motorized columns) near FOURMIES, on the morning of the 17th May 1940, killing the "Commandant" Lieutenant Eugène ROUYER and his gunner, Sous-Lt. Émile Chabert.

Thank you STIG and Yves for KIND support and information that lead to our finding out about this machine.

A.