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  #1  
Old 7th September 2009, 20:11
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
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Mistery Battle of Britain Bf-109E-7- I/(J)LG-2

While looking through a copy of Francis Mason's Battle of Britain list, I cam across a listing for the first Bf-109E-7 downed over the U.K. The listing in Mason's book is:
" Crashed on 12-10-40 at Chantry farm, Hollingbourne. Map reference R.2676. Marking not decipherable. One plate found in wreckage showed aircraft made by Gefr. Fieseler (Cassel) . Following fighter action during which the pilot bailed out, aircraft dived into ground. Engine is buried and aircraft totally wrecked. Pilot prisoner. Traces of 20MM shell guns and two Mg-17s were found.
It transpired that this was the first Bf-109E-7 to be examined by the British and a closer examination of the manufacturer's plate disclosed that this was the aircraft shot down by Stanford Tuck while flying with 92 Squadron. German record show the pilot was killed"

In the day by day listing it has for October 12 the following: " 2/LG(J)-2-Messerchmitt Bf-109E-7 (5793)-Shot down by Tuck...over Kent during morning- pilot killed".

In Jochen Prien's ongoing masterpiece, it has the following for October 12-1940
"2./LG-2 - N.N. - Luftkampf Spitfire uber See - Absturz,100% - Bf-109E-7 - 5793".

This would lead me to believe the pilot was rescued from the sea and the aircraft did not fall over Kent. I know Francis Mason's book has some errors is this one of them?
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Old 7th September 2009, 20:47
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Re: Mistery Battle of Britain Bf-109E-7- I/(J)LG-2

Hello All,

Please, I beg you, let me laugh a little bit;
I don't know if it's one of Francis Mason's book errors but the extract cited above is quite awesome!!!
... and a closer examination of the manufacturer's plate disclosed that this was the aircraft shot down by S. Tuck...

Well, it was written on plate "shot down by S. Tuck"? Or Tuck got piercing eyes to recognise the plate!!!!

Regards,
Franck.
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Old 8th September 2009, 10:02
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Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Re: Mistery Battle of Britain Bf-109E-7- I/(J)LG-2

Hi

Comparing it to the Generalquartiermeister records, I find the information in Mason's book hard to believe.

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=116200

The loss record for this aircraft seem to indicate that it was only damaged 20% on this date, and as no information has been entered with regards to the pilot every available piece of documentation from the German side suggest that this aircraft landed in German controlled area on this date, and was by no means shot down by said Tuck. The term 'Ersatz nötig' is even marked for this loss record, thus indicating that after an inspection the aircraft was damaged in a way that the unit could not make it serviceable again, even if the damage percentage was noted as being 20% only, something that frontline service units could rectify.

So - based on the German side of the story, the statements in Mason's book is not a correct version. Also, according to the posted quotes he seem to contradict himself with regards to the pilots fate - prisoner vs killed.

Jochen... I know that I should not ask this, you have enough to do already... but if you have the time could you check if you have further information that support the Mason story? Or if the 100% is an error in your book?

Regards,
Andreas B
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Last edited by Andreas Brekken; 8th September 2009 at 10:06. Reason: Additional information
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Old 8th September 2009, 10:54
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Re: Mistery Battle of Britain Bf-109E-7- I/(J)LG-2

Mason is a good starting point but some of his suppositions are way off and would be surprised is Joechen was wrong
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Old 8th September 2009, 11:10
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Re: Mistery Battle of Britain Bf-109E-7- I/(J)LG-2

The Location of Enemy Aircraft report (AIR22/266) shows four Bf109 crashes examined following crashes on the 12th Oct.
1. Me 109 Crashed at Chantry Farm - report continues as directly quoted by Mason. Pilot baled out POW (Oblt Sauer 2/JG52)
2. Me109 at Beans Hill Harrietsham . Pilot baled out POW (Oblt Buesgen I/JG52 )
3. Me109 crashed Weeks Lane Brambourne Down, Pilot baled out POW (Fw Voss 3/JG52 )
4. Me109E-3 belly-landed at Chapel Holdings Small Hythe Tenteden. Markings <1+ pilot POW ( Lt Millscheski Stab II/JG54 ) also credited to Tuck.
In addition other sources give Bf109E-7 5793 of 2/LG2 shot down by Tuck over Channel but shown on QM's returns as 20% damaged pilot unhurt, Bf109E-4 5565 of 2/LG2 damaged 15% on return to Calais-Marck, Fw Reichenbach 4/JG52 baled out over Channel body washed ashore Sheerness on 14th Oct and three Bf109's of II/JG53 returning with combat damage.
Tuck (257 Sqd) shown as flying an aircraft of 92 Sqd. this day.

Last edited by Brian Bines; 8th September 2009 at 15:10. Reason: Additional detail on 5793 and 5563 changrd to 5565.
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Old 8th September 2009, 20:58
Jochen Prien Jochen Prien is offline
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Re: Mistery Battle of Britain Bf-109E-7- I/(J)LG-2

Gentlemen,

following this thread I have checked my files with respect to the fate of Bf 109 E-7, WerkNr. 5793, especially the source that recorded its total loss on October 12th, 1940. I had made a note then that contrary to the GQM-report the a/c was not just slightly damaged - 20 % - but shot sown in aerial combat over the Channel becoming a total loss, yet I cannot reconstruct where this information came from then. Definitely not from Mason or Ramsey, which were quoted in a footnote in JG 77 Vol. 1, p. 407, as additional sources, including the comment that contrary to these two sources the death of the pilot in this incident cannot be confirmed from the sources then available to me.

What would substantiate the total loss of WerkNr. 5793 on that day however is the fact that - as far as my sources go - it was never mentioned again in a later loss report or other source.

That's as much as I can add to this discussion. Hope it helps.

Regards

Jochen Prien
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Old 9th September 2009, 03:51
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
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Re: Mistery Battle of Britain Bf-109E-7- I/(J)LG-2-Thanks to Alll!

Thanks to all for a very enlightening discussion on such an obscure subject. It just reinforces what I have observed about researching WWII aircraft, you have to check the information from a variety of sources to determine the truth
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