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  #1  
Old 7th April 2018, 00:44
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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3 Squadron ORB help needed 1941 period

Good night for all members.

I do need help of someone who may have the ORB of 3 Squadron, to check some flights for me, on the dates below:

Night of 7th July 1941
Night of 13th July 1941
Nights of 3rd, 8th and 11th August 1941
Nights of 18th, 22nd and 31st August 1941


All those flights may have been made in connection with A-20 Havoc I TURBINLITE

I do need the 3 Squadron pilots involved, serials, take off and landing times and any other relevant (training, problems) information related.

Helps most welcomed

Adriano B.
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  #2  
Old 7th April 2018, 09:48
MW Giles MW Giles is offline
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Re: 3 Squadron ORB help needed 1941 period

Too much information requested

Suggest you download the relevant ORB entries from The National Archives web site

Just go for the Form 541 showing flights made

Will cost you £7 for the two months of records

Martin
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  #3  
Old 7th April 2018, 09:58
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Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
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Re: 3 Squadron ORB help needed 1941 period

If they were training flights as opposed to operational flights these will not be in th F540/541
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Old 7th April 2018, 10:16
MW Giles MW Giles is offline
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Re: 3 Squadron ORB help needed 1941 period

Chris

They are there, hence my suggestion

Martin
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  #5  
Old 9th April 2018, 15:32
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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Re: 3 Squadron ORB help needed 1941 period

Dear Sirs,

Firstly I do beg pardon to the RAF Moderators about some considerations I will write below. Do not know if some of those will broke the rules, but nevertheless I do need to write them and express some personal points and ideas here.

Dear Martin, after 25+ years of researches and contacts with former WW2 airmen; contacts with WW2 and WW1 veterans’ relatives; contacts with some dozens + of acclaimed Historians (some of those are members of this and other Forums); after 25+ years of Reading more than 1,000 books about the subject (including some written and published by acclaimed Historians that are members of this prestigious Forums - and other Forums too), personally I drawed on my mind (and soul) two conclusions about writing and about Military Aviation (am a civilian former Commercial pilot, so can not say properly about this subject, not being a Military pilot myself):

1- No matter how good one Military pilot may be, he can not single handlely survive without a WINGMAN. (Of course, there were some exceptions to this rule, including some excellents WW1 and rare WW2 accounts); but the general rule is that you do need a Wingman (at least).

2- No matter how good a Historian and Writer may be (and we do have quite a number of those here…I prefer to not quote names to not be unfair with those I may forget to write about or to not quote those I have not read yet), he do not everything alone...He do need information from a veteran (if he was Lucky to interview him personally), from relatives of a veteran, from other Historians, from Associations, from Official sources, etc. Resuming shortly: we do need co-authors (as I call them) or "wingmans"...those dozens persons we acknowledge on the introduction of a Book, those who supported our work of years, those that without their help we would not have achieved what we dreamed or imagined. This we call here in my country, Gratitude. We do nothing alone.

Regarding the thread asking for help with 3 Squadron ORB (Files AIR 27 at NARA), I have seen hundreds of similar requests here at this Fórum and on other Forums. I personally have shared with relatives and other Historians some ORB (and parts of ORB) I have acquired for my own researches and do have quoted on Threads at this Fórum and other Forums, passages of relevance, from books I do have...Always quoting the pages cited, the ISBN, the name of author and book's tittle.

We do not grow (as Human Beings and Researchers) alone. It is by sharing, by helping and being helped that we do that.

I believe the reason of this and other History and Military History Forums is to gather people, to Exchange information and stimulate new Works, the flow of information, etc.

It woud be easier to me to answer some threads here with: “Buy the book ISBN XXXXX”, instead of helping the person with the relevant passage, page number, etc.

I would not have bothered anyone if I had, as suggested, bought the relevant two months of the ORB of 3 Squadron, at the price of 7 pounds (which I will, believe me). I therefore do apologize for bothering, but I still believe that mankind do need persons helping persons...those who have (and can share) helping those do do not have...I thought (maybe wrongly) that the purpose - or at least one of the purposes here at TOCH - was to help people and to share information.

By the way, another member shared with me some entries privately, which do not solve the entries I am looking for 100%.

As the French (where I lived 4 years of my life) so say: "C'est la vie"....and we do keep going.

Please Mr. Martin do accept this not as an offense, rather as a personal point of view. I may have expressed in English (not my maternal language) something that my original language do express in other words. If so, I do beg your pardon. It is sad to read some threads here where people do loose their temper and start firing at each other hard words. Do not know what are your fields of interest, but If I eventually can be of assistance, I will gladly be.

To all members not related to this thread, sorry for the long reply.....I just opened my feelings (something I rarely do on Forums).

Adriano Silva Baumgartner, ASV 00.344
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Old 9th April 2018, 17:53
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Re: 3 Squadron ORB help needed 1941 period

@Adriano: I totally agree and you can have the ORB copy from me if you PM me your email address.

John Engelsted
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  #7  
Old 9th April 2018, 19:09
Bruce Dennis Bruce Dennis is offline
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Re: 3 Squadron ORB help needed 1941 period

Hello Adriano,
Please let me know if you need anything else. Hope all is well with you and your project.

Regards,
Bruce
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Old 9th April 2018, 20:12
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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Re: 3 Squadron ORB help needed 1941 period

Dear Bruce, John, Chris and others,

I do thank you both for the kind help onto the biography of probably the Greatest Brazilian Military pilot ever...

This airman logged on the night of 7/8th July 1941: Affiliation. 1 exposure on A-20 Havoc I, which I managed to match on File AIR 27/33/14 with 2 pilots from 3 Squadron registering "Havoc Co-Op". So, number 1 matched!

On the night of 13/14th July the same crew reported (on A-20): 2 Exposures. There is NO correspondent entry on File AIR 27/33/14.
Does any of you can check on FILE AIR 27/33/15 if there is entries that night for some kind of Havoc co-operation flights that turned down? I only bought today Files AIR 27/33/14 and 16 to cross-check this...

Again, on the night of 3/4 August 1941, the crew reported: Affiliation + 2 exposures. NO similar entries (Havoc co-operation) were recorded onto File AIR 27/33/16. Perhaps there was NO Hurricanes flying that night....perhaps the Hurricanes were from 1422 Flight.....

On the night of 8th August there are two entries on File AIR 27/33/16 that seems to match the entry for one Affiliation flight on Havocs by the same crew....so perhaps a 100% match!

However on the night of 11th August, the 3 Squadron ORB do not inform any kind of opperational flight (AIR 27/33/16)...so, perhaps the "Affiliation with 1 exposure" recorded was done with Hurricanes of 1422 Flight...

On the night of 18th August we do have a match on AIR 27/33/16 for an Affiliation flight recorded....and on the night of 22nd August we do have 4 Havoc co-op flights recorded...so good chances indeed.

And...finally on the night of 31st August, we do have 3 Havoc co-op flights on AIR 27/33/16..so probably a good match.

IF you do have access to Files AIR 27/33/15 and /17 (Summary of Events) for the months of July and August 1941, can you check for me, IF on those dates there are mention to flights with Havocs? I have not acquired those, only the Records of Events...perhaps later...

I can inform that thanks to some of you, were are now finishing another extense biography of some 400+ pages, paying Homage to an incredible airman, forgotten by many.

MANY of you ARE already REMEMBERED as WINGMANS and CO-AUTHORS onto this Tribute and am sure, you will be thanked too, by the Family Members of this airman, that were contacted here and are helping onto this Tribute...Am just a small bridge between the Past and the Future - trying to preserve what our Country forgot to (and should) remember and Honour.

DENNIS, GOSS and ENGELSTED you certainly know what I am at...and you both are already recorded and acknowledged onto this another tribute....It has been more than 5 years of researches now....There are some almost 100 persons flying along me and with me on this tribute to Honour a Hero. As you may imagine, countless were the hours on scans, digitalizing, cross-checking files, books, documents, interviewing, etc...and I do not a SINGLE PENNY for myself from that....

AM AGAIN IN DEBT WITH YOU AND OTHER MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM...REALLY!

Adriano Silva Baumgartner, ASV 00.344
baumgartner_asv@yahoo.com.br

Dear Mr. Martin, I remembered one saying that is (or still may be) at Alhambra, in Spain, a place I visited while a kid, with my late father, who was doing his PhD in France, where we lived as a Family during 4 years: "Cry as a woman what you have not succeeded in obtaining or conquering as a man"....

Your answer prompted me to move forward...only me and other persons do know what I have passed through to write this book I am finishing. One day all those involved will be rewarded, am sure....including the WINGMANS quoted here...to whom I am eternally in debt.....
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  #9  
Old 10th April 2018, 10:27
MW Giles MW Giles is offline
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Re: 3 Squadron ORB help needed 1941 period

Dear Mr Adriano

My sincerest apologies if I have offended you

Yours faithfully

Mr MW Giles
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  #10  
Old 10th April 2018, 19:49
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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Re: 3 Squadron ORB help needed 1941 period

Dear Martin,

We are here to help one another and to enjoy what make us happy: Military History.

Me too I do appologize and, again, do offer you any help I may be of, on your own researches/"roads". Do not know your fields of interests, but if I can be of assistance, I will gladly be.

Must of us just want to preserve something or write about something, or research about something...I guess we are linked together, no matter where we were born, if we are civilians or ex-military as some are here (or were)...

We all learned here with this thread and in my case I guess I managed to match what I was looking for, thanks for the help of quite a number of persons.

Wish you and yours a nice week, in health and Peace. From a friend of the Forum

Adriano S. Baumgartner
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