Mustang I

[Kaiyan]

Other points that were taken in to consideration when id ing the aircraft as V was the state of the canopy on X it is in "good" condition on V it is totally smashed,
Engine cowling on X is shown as "loose" on your pic of it on its wheels (copy attached )it is secure. later during the "recovery" its missing..
there are other points

[SteveB]

I think you will find that 'V' is AP212 of 268Sqn which was flown by P/Off Tony Bethell on 7/12/42 when it crashed near Bergen in Holland. Many will know that Bethell was a famous participant in the "Great Escape" story I believe he died quite recently...

Steve

[Kaiyan]

No I did not know but thanks for the info it completes the picture

[Col Ford]

The first pair of photos show AP212 'V' of No.268 Squadron, which was flown by F/O Tony Bethell and shot down by flak near Bergen on 7 December 1942. The damage in those photos match other photos taken of this Mustang soon after it crashed, in particular the damage to the vertical tail leading edge and behind the cockpit, plus the absence of the port wing. The second supposed photo of 'V' - Mustang on its undercarriage - I do not think is AP212, due to the fact the port wing is still attached and other clues in the photo. In the other known photos of AP212 'V' taken in December 1942 at its crash site near Bergen showing it from multiple angles, it is shown on very close cropped ground, winter in the Netherlands, no growth, and there are no trees close to the crash site. In the photo of 'V' on its undercarriage it has a left wing and reasonably longish growth on the ground, plus trees with foliage relatively close to the aircraft. There is also to my eye, in comparing the photos of AP212 'V' soon after the crash that I have, differences in the damage to the nose area in the picture of 'V' on its undercarriage. I suspect two different Mustangs.

Also a point of correction to an earlier post. Army Co-operation Command dropped Squadron identification letters from their Mustangs from November 1942 and they did not return during the war. Only the individual aircraft id letter was displayed on the Tac/R Mustangs for the remainder of the war and immediate post war period. By the time the last of the Allison Mustangs left the last Squadron using them operationally post War, being No.268 Squadron, up until August 1945, they still only carried the individual aircraft id letter. The Spitfire FR.XIVes which had first supplemented and then replaced the Mustangs on the Squadron, also only carried individual aircraft id letters until around late September to early October 1945 when Squadron identification letters started to be re-implemented in the post-War Tac/R Squadrons remaining in Germany.

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
So to confirm ?

The photo in post#4 is "X", AG661.
The photo in post#19 is "V", AP212.
The photo in post #21 is "X", AG661.

Alex

[SteveB]

I am sure that Colin will have his own views and I should have been more clear in my post #22. In my view the photo on post #21 shows neither AP212 nor AG661. The canopy on AP212 has not been smashed up it has been jettisoned by the pilot and it has hit the leading edge of the tailfin.
Steve

[RSwank]

I think post #21 is the same plane as #4 (i.e. X AG661). Look carefully at the exhaust pipes.
The first pipe seems to be gone in both photos, then next one seems to be battered or twisted so that it opens toward the front. Only the remaining 4 pipes are in the correct position.
That seems to be the same in both photos and the damage to the 2nd pipe seems identical (at least to me) in both pictures.

The other item to observe is the 3 trees (on the horizon) that appear just in front of the cockpit in picture 4 and just over the outer machine gun port on the right wing of picture 21. From left to right there is the lowest tree with a flat top that steps down to the right. Then a space to the middle tree which is the tallest of the group. It has a pointed top, but with a wider point then the last tree on the right. This last tree is also shorter than the middle tree but it is taller than the first tree.

Look closely and you can see that the middle tree has a small bulge toward the left, about even with the level of the right side step of the left most tree. If you study the two views of these 3 trees in picture 4 and 21, I would claim you are looking at the same three trees.

[SteveB]

RSwank you are correct...I jumped too quickly...concentrating on the cockpit area! Well done.

[Horst Weber]

Originally Posted by RSwank

I think post #21 is the same plane as #4 (i.e. X AG661). Look carefully at the exhaust pipes.
The first pipe seems to be gone in both photos, then next one seem to be battered or twisted so that it opens toward the front. Only the remaining 4 pipes are in the correct position.
That seems to be the same in both photos and the damage to the 2nd pipe seems identical (at least to me) in both pictures.

The other item to observe is the 3 trees (on the horizon) that appear just in front of the cockpit in picture 4 and just over the outer machine gun port on the right wing of picture 21. From left to right there is the lowest tree with a flat top that steps down to the right. Then a space to the middle tree which is the tallest of the group. It has a pointed top, but with a wider point then the last tree on the right. This last tree is also shorter than the middle three but it is taller than the first tree.

Look closely and you can see that the middle tree has a small bulge toward the left, about even with the level of the right side step of the left most tree. If you study the two views of these 3 trees in picture 4 and 21, I would claim you are looking at the same three trees.

A neat puzzle and well solved, good eyes, Swank

but to make it more complicate as it still is, one question:

In John Rawlings book "Fighter Squadrons of the RAF and their aircraft" neither No. 400 SQ nor No. 268 SQ shows up.

In Norman L. R. Franks "Fighter Command Losses of the Second World War", Vol. 2, the loss of MUSTANG I, s/n AP212 (No. 268 SQ on December 7th, 1942), is not mentioned, but the loss of MUSTANG I, s/n AG661 (No. 400 SQ on June 2nd, 1943) shows up in the book.

What could be the reason ?
Best wishes !

Horst Weber

[Col Ford]

The reason why neither No.400 Squadron or No.268 Squadron RAF show up in Rawlings book, is that they are not fighter Squadrons, but Army Co-operation Squadrons. They appear therefore in "Coastal, Support and Special Squadrons of the RAF and their Aircraft" by Rawlings. Similarly, for the Franks book, until the Army Co-operation Command Squadrons were temporarily transferred to Fighter Command on1 June 1943, before they were transferred to 2TAF when it was formed, they did not fall within the parameters for his books on Fighter Command losses. After 1 June 1943 date, you will see losses for these Squadrons listed in the Franks books.

Think of them if you will as Reconnaissance squadrons flying armed fighter type aircraft, primarily at low level.

Quite a list of Squadrons flying the Allison engined Mustangs (and earlier Curtiss Tomahawks) that do not appear in the Franks books until after 1 June 1943.