Any German NF-claims on Lancs over Spessart-area?

[Nordpol54]

Gents,

for about slightly more than one year i am searching for the reason for the crash of two RCAF Lancasters in the close vicinity of Pfaffenhausen, happend evening 16th January 1945.
After war report of RCAF investigation depends on interrogation of local eyewitnesses and turns out that the Lancs went down due to mid air-colission. It is said that no German NF activities in the area had been taken place. What makes me suspicious is the point that the crash of the second Lanc is mentioned as about 20 minutes later than the first one occurred. Both bombers hitted the ground only in a distance of aprox. 1.5 km.
Possibly anyone has nonetheless any German NF-claims between 21.00 and 22.00 hrs. in the mentioned region?
If this might be of any help, please crosscheck http://www.lostaircraft.com/database...viewentry&e=58
Thanks in advance for any assistance.

y/f
Norbert

P.S.: Thanks again for all the highly interesting documents and pics Annie und Nicolas Legrand had handed over to me for my attempt to research this incident.

[Leo Etgen]

Hello Norbert

I looked through the claims list of The Nachtjagd War Diaries by Boiten and Mackenzie but did not find any claims that match for that date. There are a number of claims that unfortunately do not include the time nor location but for those that do nothing appears to match. Could you please inform us which may have been the second aircraft involved in the collision? Many thanks.

Horrido!

Leo

[Nordpol54]

Leo,

thanks a lot for Your kind interest and efforts.

The second bomber involved was Lancaster X of 434. Squadron, WL-O (KB 850). Whole crew KIA: F/Lt. A. Kiehlbauch, P/Off. D. Turner, F/Off. G. Shaw, F/Off. N. Fadden, P/Off. W. Wilson, P/Off. A. Carolan und P/Off. W. Martin.

Best Regards
Norbert

[Leo Etgen]

Hello Norbert

Thank you for clarifying which was the second aircraft. Once again nothing appears in the claims list included in the Boiten and Mackenzie book although as I mentioned previously out of 26 claims listed the time and/or location of these is included for 11 claims thus leaving considerable fuzziness in the events of that night in terms of matching claims to victims. Among claims with no time or location that is listed are three Lancaster claims by Oberstleutnant Walter Borchers of Stab/NJG 5, three Halifax claims by Hauptmann Werner Hopf of 8./NJG 5, two Halifax claims by Oberleutnant Hans-Heinrich Breitfeldt of 9./NJG 5 and two Lancaster claims by Oberleutnant Kurt Welter of Kommando Welter. As an aside I noticed in RAF Bomber Command Losses by Chorley that Lancaster I (PD309) "UL-W2" of 576 Sqn, RAF flown by F/O CR Pegg was abandoned by its crew near Brussels after a reported engagement with two jet fighters one of which the crew reported may have been shot down. Could this have been one of Welter's victims? It is interesting to speculate.

Horrido!

Leo

[Nordpol54]

Leo,

thanks a lot again, and i appreciate any info, thoughts and meanings.

I had putted this enquiry by similar terms before at

http://disc.yourwebapps.com/Indices/169401.html

and received an interesting answer by a kind laddie:

Frederic Henoff
Re: Lancaster claims at 16th january 1945?
Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:24
82.231.85.241


Bonjour Norbert,

From the book “Night Fighter Combat Claims” by Foreman/Matthews/Parry:

16-17 January 1945 - Oblt. Kurt Welter - 10. NJG 11 - Lancaster
16-17 January 1945 - Oblt. Kurt Welter - 10. NJG 11 - Lancaster

No information about the place.
Hope this helps,

Regards,
Frederic

Keeping up on trace...

y/f
Norbert

[RodM]

Hi Norbert,

I hope that the following will provide you with an understanding on the air battles on this night and on the gaps in available knowledge due to the destruction of Luftwaffe records in the last few months of the war.

The RAF attacks on the night of 16-17 January 1945 can be split in to two major components - (1) Two large bomber streams that flew out over France and over/near Luxembourg to attack the oil refineries at Zeitz and Brux, and (2) a large bomber stream that flew out across the North Sea and then flew southwards over NW Germany to attack Magdeburg.

The Luftwaffe Jagddivisions (1, 2, and 3 JDs) each concentrated on different raids. 3 Jagddivision, which included the Nachtjagd units I., II., III., and IV./NJG1, I. and II./NJG2, I. and III./NJG4, was deployed against the stream coming in over France (Zeitz and Brux), while 2 Jagddivision, although it initially made deployments of night fighters in reaction to the southern stream, ended up combatting the stream flying southward across NW Germany (Magdeburg). This has been verified from analysis of a large number of Nachtjagd aircrew flying logbooks along with analysis of radio traffic intercepted by the British "Y" Service.

The night fighters of 3 JD managed to catch up with and infiltrate the Zeitz bomber stream to the NE of Frankfurt, and it was here that the first combats took place. At 2115 hrs a 12 Sqn Lancaster was shot down by a pilot from III./NJG1. The next two aircraft from the Zeitz force to crash were the two you are interested in - from 405 and 434 Sqns. While the post-war RAF investigation thought that the two aircraft may have collided, witnesses, as you're aware, thought the crashes to be some twenty minutes apart.

From surviving RAF records, it is interesting to note that in the immediate area where these two aircraft crashed, returning RAF crews reported witnessing an aircraft falling in flames at approx 2121 hrs, and another aircraft being shot down by a night fighter at 2130 hrs (the horizontal tracer fire from the night fighter was seen before the bomber caught fire and crashed).

So, the three aircraft, one each from 12, 405, and 434 Sqns were the only ones lost along the outward route of the Zeitz/Brux bomber streams at this time. The next loss didn't occur until around 2200 hrs, some 180 km east of the crashes at Pfaffenhausen.

In addition, a German night fighter of III./NJG1 ran out of fuel and crashed some 100 km NE of Pfaffenhausen.

So, as can be seen, there was isolated night fighter activity and combats along the route of the stream, including the Pfaffenhausen area.

So, who may have shot down the 405 and 434 Sqn Lancasters, if they were indeed lost to night fighters? This is where the destruction of Luftwaffe records leaves big gaps in our knowledge. Firstly, to the best of my knowledge, no information indicating the total effort by the Nachtjagd on this night survives, so it is impossible to know how many night fighter claims were submitted. The claims where some documentary evidence exists come from the few surviving unit records and the flying log books/personal archives of the aircrew involved.

Thus, it is not known have many aircrew under 3 Jagddivision claimed aircraft shot down, bearing in mind that night fighters of this Jagddivision also engaged the bomber stream along its homeward route to the north. It can reasonably be assumed that there is a probability that the details of some claims have been lost.

Of the 3 Jagddivision claims where I've verified the original documentary source:

Hptm. Dietrich Schmidt (III./NJG1) - claimed the 12 Sqn Lancaster at 2115 hrs.

Fw. Heinrich Lahmann (III./NJG1) - made a claim at 2156 hrs and piloted the Bf110 that ran out of fuel as mentioned above. From the crash location of Lahmann's Bf110, it is certain that he was active against the Zeitz/Brux streams along their outward route. It is possible that he attacked one of the two Pfaffenhausen Lancasters, although the time of his claim would suggest otherwise. He equally may have shot down a 101 Sqn Lancaster, the next aircraft to crash after those at Pfaffenhausen, at 2215 hrs.

Lt. Joachim Sommerau (III./NJG1) - made a claim at 2210 hrs, could have been the 101 Sqn Lanc mentioned above.

The other known claims all occurred after 2200 hrs so aren't relevant. Because the KTB and a claims listing for III./NJG1 are preserved, these details are available. The same can't be said for the other 3 Jagddivision units, and it would not surprise me that some claims were made where the details are lost. The known claims by crews of the other JDs (NJG3, NJG5, and III./NJG2) can be discounted because they were not employed against the Zeitz/Brux bomber streams between Frankfurt and Nuremberg.

With regards to the claims by Welter in an Me262, the first important point to make is that these claims, to me, are pure heresay, and I've yet to find one piece of documentary evidence that Welter was even airborne on this night, let alone shooting down bombers. There is all sorts of background that I won't go into that involves researchers inventing fictious claims that have now made it in to publications in the west. The claims by RAF crews about being attacked by or seeing jet fighter(s) on this night need to be put in to proper context - such reports were made on almost every major RAF night raid during late 1944 and in 1945, and most can be put down to mistaken identity. As mentioned, I've seen no evidence to support any Me262 action against four-engined bombers at night other than a post-war memo written by Welter himself where he claims to have shot down two Lancaster in an Me262. But, if such an event occurred, the date is not known, and not conclusively supported by Allied records. For the record, the jet encounters reported by the RAF crews on the night of 16-17 January occurred to the NW of Zeitz.

I hope that this helps.

Regards

RodM

[ClinA-78]

More about PD309 lost on 17/01/45:
http://www.fiskertonairfield.org.uk/photo_15.html

ClinA-78

[Nordpol54]

RodM,
thanks a lot for this comprehensive information, i appreciate it very much.

and

ClinA-78,
thanks a lot as well for the additional.

y/f
Norbert

[Stig Jarlevik]

Norbert

One small point which just might indicate this was no collision is that KB850 took off at 17.19H while PB402 did the same at 18.13H. KB850 should under normal conditions be way ahead of PB402.

I can think of many reasons why this would mean very little, but it is at least a reason why the two aircraft came down about 20 minutes apart and perhaps also an indication why this was no collision.

B Rgds
Stig

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Regarding Welter's claims, they are just that claims, I am pretty sure that most of his later claims were fraudulent.

Regards

Johannes