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  #1  
Old 13th May 2008, 17:16
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Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
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Hptm Johann Dreher 12/NJG 3

Dreher was the 2nd of 3 II/KG 53 pilots to convert to night fighters in 1943/44. His demise is well known but:

Les Butler says he had 5 kills in 1944 with 6/NJG 3
Obermaier says he had 2 kills with 9/NJG 2 and then 13/NJG 3
Luftwaffe Night Fighter Combat claims says the kills accredited to him with 6/NJG 3 were in fact for a Hptm Decker and that the only recorded kill was 15-16 Jan 45.

Comments please!
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Old 14th May 2008, 03:15
Tom Semenza Tom Semenza is offline
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Re: Hptm Johann Dreher 12/NJG 3

John,

Foreman's Luftwaffe Night Fighter Claims book lists Dreher's second claim as a Lancaster on the night of 18/19.02.45. Regarding Dreher vs. Decker for the five 1944 claims, Obermaier says that Dreher joined 9./NJG 2 in July of 1944. This unit was redesignated 12./NJG 3 on 30.10.44. Since the 1944 claims were with 6./NJG 3, in the absence of further information, I would assume that these were not made by Dreher.

Best wishes,

Tom
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Old 14th May 2008, 08:13
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Re: Hptm Johann Dreher 12/NJG 3

John??

All I says is never assume!

Chris
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Old 14th May 2008, 12:16
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Hptm Johann Dreher 12/NJG 3

Hi,

with regards to the supposed claim on 18-19 Feb 1945, the data from the Foreman/Parry claims book originates from the list prepared by the late Emil Nonnenmacher (with much of that also compiled by Hans Ring). Unfortunately, the supporting information for the Nonnenmacher lists became scattered to the wind when the collection was sold off after his death.

In this case, there are two claims for the 18-19 Feb 1945 in the Nonnenmacher list (and hence in the Foreman/Parry book) - by Oblt. Reuter and Hptm. Dreher, both of 12./NJG3. I have certainly seen no provenance to confirm the validity of these two reputed claims, but can state that according to a Luftlagemeldung by OKL FüSt Ic, only one Abschuss was claimed by the Nachtjagd on this night.

To further cloud the issue, it can be proven that the Nonnenmacher listing has many erroneous entries, and I have heard that there were many deliberately false entries inserted by Nonnenmacher himself as an 'anti-theft' device against other researchers publishing his lists (I've found quite a few such entries for the 1945 period).


With regards to the claim on 15-16 Jan 1945, I suspect that it could have been made the following night, but, again, no documentary source has been cited to confirm a claim by Dreher on either night.

Thus, in the absence of any solid documentary info, the specific published details of Dreher's alledged 1945 claims should be taken with a grain of salt...

Cheers

RodM
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Old 14th May 2008, 13:15
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Re: Hptm Johann Dreher 12/NJG 3

Rod

Exactly my concerns. Some records are now saying that Dreher shot down 2 aircraft on the night of Gisela so where did this evidence come from?

What also puzzles me is the Dreher/Decker conumdrum. Obermaier is known to have made some errors but why did Les say Dreher and Foreman/Parry say Decker?
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Old 14th May 2008, 14:17
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Hptm Johann Dreher 12/NJG 3

Hi Chris,

I have been struggling with the Nonnenmacher lists for 1945 period for over four years now, and have so far only been able to verify via documentary sources some 70% of the listed claims. I have found no direct evidence for any of the reputed Dreher 1945 claims from these lists.

As far as I am aware, there is no documented proof that Dreher shot down anything during Gisela. While I'm not saying that he didn't, it is just that there is no solid evidence to confirm that he did. I believe that the published Dreher claims on 3-4 Mar 1945 stem from the fact that not all of the 22 certain and six probable Abschusse intially claimed during Gisela can be attributed to specific crews based upon surviving evidence, so attempts have been made to attribute these to missing aircrew, including Dreher (i.e. over time what started as supposition becomes fact). There were a number of intruders swarming over Yorkshire at the time Dreher crashed.

Off-hand I cannot remember if this applies to Dreher or one of the other crews that crashed in England, but one supposition attributing claims to crashed aircrew comes from a British witness report that states that the civilian witness 'saw' the same intruder in the area continuously over a 15 minute period (from when a bomber was shot down to when an intruder crashed). While it is possible that the aircraft heard was the same intruder, it is, of course, equally possible that more than one intruder was active in the area.


With regards to what Les has written, while I cannot, of course, answer for him, I know that the orignal microfilms were very difficult to read in places, and this has probably resulted in some names being mis-transcribed. In this case, the only way to know for sure would be to view the original source microfilms. The details in Foreman/Parry work most likely originate from what is in the Nonnenmacher list.

I can say that collegue Dr Theo Boiten has, during his research, attributed Dreher with the 1944 Abschusse, but I cannot comment on how such a conclusion was reached.

Cheers

Rod

PS - I've just looked up the copy (from the original) of the 1945 Nonnenmacher lising that I have (note - Nonnenmacher didn't date or put version numbers on his lists, so I don't know if my copy of the list is the most up-to-date prior to his death). Here are the 1945 Dreher claims from that list:

16-17 Jan 45 "Halifax", listed as Dreher's 1st Abschuss
18-19 Feb 45 "Lancaster", listed as 2nd Abschusse
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Old 14th May 2008, 14:40
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Re: Hptm Johann Dreher 12/NJG 3

Hmm. I would be interested to know why Theo thought Decker was Dreher. This is the trouble in our game-one can never assume!

I am in Germany next week and will try to see if Dreher's sister is still alive; it would be a bonus if she was and could confirm some things

Chris
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Old 14th May 2008, 15:31
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Hptm Johann Dreher 12/NJG 3

Hi Chris,

there is a file (RL 10/575) at the BA/MA concerning IV./NJG3, but I do not know what information it may (or may not) have on Dreher, as I haven't seen it...


Cheers

Rod
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Old 14th May 2008, 17:57
Tom Semenza Tom Semenza is offline
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Re: Hptm Johann Dreher 12/NJG 3

Chris,

Sorry about that. I don't know where "John" came from except from being tired after a long day!

You are correct in that no assumptions should be made, except that there is no evidence that Dreher ever served in 6./NJG 3.

Cheers,
Tom
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Old 14th May 2008, 18:23
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Re: Hptm Johann Dreher 12/NJG 3

Tom (not aka John!)

The only way would be to find his personnel records but I find it odd that 2 x RK-holders from II/KG 53 get posted to 9/NJG 2 at the same time (Dreher & Kornblum

Chris
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