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  #1  
Old 29th June 2017, 22:47
Mauser98 Mauser98 is offline
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The first 4 Ju88C-6 prototypes?

Several Ju88 info pages including wiki claim that "the first four C-6 night fighters were tested in early 1942 by NJG 2". Most likely in the area surrounding Gilze-Rijen.

Another article says: "On November 15 1941 I./NJG 2 commanded by Hptm. Emil Jung arrived at the Sicilian airfield Catania. Initially six Ju 88C-6s of 2. Staffel were on detachment to Benghazi, but they returned to Catania on November 28."

I have reason to believe that 4 (maybe 5) early C-6 versions were assigned to III./NJG 2 on Jan/feb 1942 and tested by crews from Erg.St., both stationed at Gilze-Rijen around that time. One of those planes crashed as early as February 17 1942 (R4+LR) when 7th staffel was not yet officially formed (?) is this the first known C-6 that was lost?

I would love to get more info on those early C-6's or perhaps some suggestions (logs, books, etc.) where i should look to find some leads. Any help is more than welcome!

Greetings Philip
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Old 30th June 2017, 14:00
Rottler Rottler is offline
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Re: The first 4 Ju88C-6 prototypes?

Hello Philip,

here are some early Ju 88 C-6 losses proved by the Gen.Qu. loss reports:

17.2.42 360153 Ergänzungsstaffel/NJG 2
20.5.42 360160 Ergänzungsstaffel/NJG 2
27.5.42 360190 I./NJG 2
31.5.42 360184 Ergänzungsstaffel/NJG 2
10.6.42 360204 II./KG 51
13.6.42 360198 II./KG 51.

Regards
Leo
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Old 30th June 2017, 21:56
edNorth edNorth is offline
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Re: The first 4 Ju88C-6 prototypes?

Mauser98, them 8 first (numbers) in C-6 360151 numbers range were all with NJG 2 in 1942 (my list), but these were not prototypes. Why? Because they had no new equipment, but the engines (which made it an C-6!) and basically had same weapons as C-2 / C-4, but first 17 were Ju 88 C-6/B (short range version) but then Ju 88 C-6/C became standard. So far as I know no specific prototypes were for C-6, but maybe (or likely) an earlier C-2 / 4 may have tested Jumo 211 J engines with wood props but as these were already in production (for A-4 and D-1) there may have been no need for testing one!
-Ed
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Old 30th June 2017, 23:00
Mauser98 Mauser98 is offline
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Re: The first 4 Ju88C-6 prototypes?

Thanks for the info guys.

@Ed, sounds interesting.

There are reports that 360151 t/m 360155 crash(land)ed in Holland, but i also found a report on SGLO from a C-6 with werk nr.360027 (NJG 2) that crashed later in 1942 and another one with werk nr.360147 (NJG 1).
From then on the range 02xx shows up, followed by loads of 720xxx and 750xxx.

Is it safe to say that the Ju88 with werk nr.360153 was the first C-6 that was lost? and what book could you recommend to get a little more understanding/knowledge on how the serial numbers follow up? It all sounds like arabic to me.

Thanks, Philip
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  #5  
Old 1st July 2017, 12:56
Merlin Merlin is offline
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Re: The first 4 Ju88C-6 prototypes?

The first batch of Ju 88C-6 was produced by Ju Bernburg from 11.41 to 05.42 with numbers 360151 to 360250. This batch was followed by:
360001 - 360150 06.42 - 12.42
360251 - 360460 12.42 - 04.43
750235 - 751032 (with gaps) 04.43 - 12.43.

Si Halle manufactured 720011 - 720335 (with gaps) 09.43 - 12.43
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Gerhard Stemmer
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  #6  
Old 1st July 2017, 16:06
edNorth edNorth is offline
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Re: The first 4 Ju88C-6 prototypes?

The batches Mr. Stemmer talks about were only W.Nr. (numbers ranges), all beginning with 0880360xxx, 0880140xxx, 0880430xxx - but 75xxxx and 72xxxx series were in six digit Secret code "system" (most often skipping 088 as prefix) - not production batches.

The Ju 88 C-6 were only assembled at FZB (Bernburg), not "Ju Bernburg" (sic) from components (wings, tails fuselages, engines, propellers etc.) but not produced there. The factories producing the Ju 88 components were located elsewhere, and these also getting hoards of small parts from yet another location (JFM Schönebeck, ATG Leipzig, Siebel Halle to name just three feeding main JFM locations). This former info has been stated many times, even in books and is correct. The latter info is so obscure that "mainstream-authors" most often fail look for them (or just skip).

"Production Batches" were entierly different and airframe´s (Zellen) within each batch also going to the Ju 88 A-4s & D-1s besides the C-6. This was Mass-production scheme, and production assembly was not dependent on batches. Orders of certain numbers of airframes from Gross-Bauteilen parts was common. Even them Siebels were from Gross-Bauteilen, and may have included Junkers made fuselages. And Ju 88 A-4 Lizence builders feeding parts in more complex manner than previously published, whereby for example, Henschel (planned) supplied fuselages to Arado, Siebel, ATG and Heinkel. But it seems these also ending up in Bernburg too!

I have different info on Ju 88 C-6s than Mr. Stemmler but will not elaborate - as not part of original query, but yes, assembly of C-6s started in about November 1941 but very few delivered at first.

Wise be not recommend any mainstream Ju 88 book at present. Having reached my point in Ju 88 research, I see clearly who has "copied info" (most often garbled) or who had done his or hers homework properly.
This says the "new" title published by Classic some years back, by an American, are ... excuse the language ... botched.

Medcalf "skipping Europe as an research source" is all too evedent. Well placed errors make me regret picking them up at RAF Museum Hendon last year. Not worth their pounds. Speaking of Hendon, they had the only ex-Ju 88 C-6 in existance but converted to BMW engines as Ju 88 R-1 in 1942.

Mr. Philip, I am not researching the Ju 88 to tell if certain planes were used by certain units, in certain times. My research is aimed at what happened in production, why, how and where.

-Ed

Last edited by edNorth; 3rd July 2017 at 00:18.
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  #7  
Old 1st July 2017, 18:30
Rottler Rottler is offline
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Re: The first 4 Ju88C-6 prototypes?

Hello Philip,

in accordance with the Gen.Qu. loss reports the 360153 very probably was the first Ju 88 C-6 loss.

Your quoted four Ju 88 C-6 are listed in the Gen.Qu. loss reports too:

360151 1.8.42 Erg.Gruppe/NJG 2 bei Gilze-Rijen Feindbeschuß 25%

360155 2.9.42 9./NJG 2 Flugplatz Gilze-Rijen Bauchlandung infolge Motorstörung 10%

360027 17.9.42 III./NJG 2 Gilze-Rijen Absturz infolge Feindbeschuß 100% 3 +

360147 4.2.43 Erg.Staffel/NJG 2 bei Flugplatz Gilze-Rijen Absturz 100% 3 +.

Regards
Leo
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Old 1st July 2017, 22:04
edNorth edNorth is offline
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Re: The first 4 Ju88C-6 prototypes?

360027 and 360147 had not been built in early 1942 (time of query).

First 10 be thus such:

[ Produced from October 1941 ]

================ [ C-6/B ] ==================

360151 Ju 88 C-6 [RR+SA] Luftwaffe
- Ju 88 C-6 [R4+CA] Stab.IV/NJG 2
(Lw.Befh.Mitte) OPS (F) damaged by enemy fire in air-combat (25% Er) nr Gilze-Rijn [Holland, in night of 01/02.08.1942] 01.08.1942 (F Hptm. Herbert Seving inj, two other uninjured)
[rep C6 151 of Erg.St./NJG 2 in LWFLV losses 75v04.08.42; rep C6 360151 R4+CA of Stab.IV in Michael Balss “Deutsche Nachtjagd”]

360152 Ju 88 C-6 [RR+SB] Luftwaffe
- Ju 88 C-6 [R4+AD] Stab.III/NJG 2
(Lw.Befh.Mitte) OPS (F) downed by enemy fire (100%) near Rotterdam [at ´Rhoon / Poortugaal´ (10 km south of Rotterdam) in Holland at 01:25 hrs, night of 31/01.08.1942] 01.08.1942 (F Hptm. Herbert Bönsch, BF Fw. Otto Böttcher and BS Ofw. August Willi mis/killed hh/26.08.42)
[rep C6 152 R4+AD in LWFLV losses 74v04.08.42; amd 360152 in a/28.08.42; Aircraft parts and human remains recovered 17.11.1994: see NFLA Wreck Register (Update 2003); also Michael Balss “Deutsche Nachtjagd”; NVM via LBB]

360153 Ju 88 C-6 [RR+SC] Luftwaffe
- Ju 88 C-6 [R4+LR] Erg.St./NJG 2
(Lw.Befh.Mitte) OPS (F) [was returning from operation] crashed (100%) near Breda [i.e. at Ulvenhout near breda, Holland, at 01:40 hrs in night of 16/17.02.1941] 17.02.1942 (F Oblt. Alfred Malonaar, BS Fw. Johann Jost and BF Ofw. Alwin Scheibel killed)
[rep C6 in LWFLV losses 79v18.02.42 amd W.Nr. 153 in h/20.02.42 ~ likely <C6> 360153; rep C6 360153 R4+LR in Michael Balss “Deutsche Nachtjagd”]

360154 Ju 88 C-6 [RR+SD] Luftwaffe
- Ju 88 C-6 8./NJG 2 (Lw.Befh.Mitte)
Non-OPS (H) pilot error and crash landed (15%) at Gilze-Rijn [Holland] 30.08.1942
[again rep C6 154 of III/NJG 2 ´undercarriage dam´ 15% at Gilze-Rijn 30.8.´ LWFLV losses 102v02.09.42]
- Ju 88 C-6 4./NJG 2 (Lw.Befh.Mitte)
OPS (F) undercarriage damage (15%) at Comiso 19.12.1942

360155 Ju 88 C-6 [RR+SE] Luftwaffe
- Ju 88 C-6 9./NJG 2 (Lw.Befh.Mitte)
OPS (F) engine failures and belly landed (10%) at Gilze-Rijn 02.09.1942 [again rep in LWFLV losses 06.09.42; now as ´C6 155´ of III/NJG 2 ´engine fire and force landed 10%´]
- Ju 88 C-6 10./NJG 3 (Lw.Befh.Mitte)
OPS (F) technical troble (80%) at Schleswig Airfield 01.09.1943

360156 Ju 88 C-6 [RR+SF] Luftwaffe
- Ju 88 C-6 Erg./NJG 2 (Luftwaffe)
Non-OPS (H) crashed on training flight, 6 km south-west of Gilze-Rijn, Holland, 03.08.1942 (Obgefr. Rudolf Morenz and Gefr. Walter Stwtetschka injured, Obgefr. Anton Boy killed)

[not in LWFLV or LWFLS losses ?; rep C6 360116 in Michael Balss “Deutsche Nchtjagd” (poss. in error as C6 360116 made in about October 1942; poss. 360156 (here)]

360157 Ju 88 C-6 [RR+SG] Luftwaffe
- Ju 88 C-6 I/LG 1 (Lw.Kdo.Süd-Ost)
OPS (F) damaged by enemy bombing (20%) at Saloniki-Sedes Airfield 24.06.1943 (rep C6 36015 in LWFLV losses 03v05.07.43; amd 360157 in g/21.08.43) [two on unit strength list]

[0157 Ju 88 C-6 IV/LG 1 (Lw.Kdo.Sud-Ost)
OPS (F) damaged by <enemy> bombing (15%) at Saloniki-Sedes Airfield 24.06.1943 (rep C6 0157 in LWFLV losses 10v05.07.43 ; along with other of same unit: Ju 88 A-4 W.Nr. 142429 25%, Klemm Kl 35 W.Nr. 1764 80%, Caudron C-445 No. 490 100% and Junkers W 34 W.Nr 211 15% damaged) - Note: no C-6 on unit strength list but can be the other of I/LG 1 (abowe)]

360158 Ju 88 C-6 [RR+SH] Luftwaffe
- Ju 88 C-6 [F1+XM] 4./KG 76 (Luftwaffe)
[360158´ UC: rep at Taganrog Airfield in late-winter (1941/1942): photos in Brian Filley: “Ju 88 In Action” (Part 2) P.15 ~ likely same as the one reported below]
- Ju 88 C-6 [F1+XM] Stab./KG 76
(Luftflotte 4 East) OPS (F) missing (100%) unk location (PLQ 8375) 13.07.1942 (F Uffz. Franz Vorst, BF Uffz. Horst Winkelmann and BS Uffz. Wilhelm Mücke missing) (rep C6 F1+MX in LWFLV losses; but photo shows unit code was F1+XM)

360159 Ju 88 C-6 [RR+SI] Luftwaffe
- Ju 88 C-6 [F1+YM] 4./KG 76 (Fliegerkorps
VIII East) OPS (F) missing (100%) unk location (Welish) 16.02.1942 (F Lt. Rudolf Bundt, B Gefr. Alfred Jordan and BF Fw. Karl Jensen mis/rep ret allright in f/20.02.42)

[C6 3615 F1+YM in LWFLV losses 04v17.02.1942; not <C6> 360005 nor 360015 and other <A4> 2615 (3615) is known lost later; poss. 360159 etc.- Placing here is speculative!)]

360160 Ju 88 C-6 [RR+SJ] Luftwaffe
- Ju 88 C-6 Erg.St./NJG 2
(Lw.Befh.Mitte) OPS (F) damaged by enemy fire and belly landed (25% Er) at Gilze-Rijn Airfield 20.05.1942 (rep Ju 88 C6 160 in LWFLV losses 38v23.05.42)
[160 Ju 88 C6 of Stab./NJG 2 (Lw.Befh.Mitte) ´OPS (F) 25% Er´ in LWFLV losses 52v29.05.42 but report was struck out in s/01.06.42 >dupl.]
- Ju 88 [RR+SJ] Luftwaffe
Known flown Werkflug at JFM Reims 12.05.43 [F Zimmermann; as Ju 88 0160 RR+SJ in logbook]

Note: some are placed by speculation (as one digit typos etc.) and explained. -Ed
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  #9  
Old 2nd July 2017, 11:22
Mauser98 Mauser98 is offline
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Re: The first 4 Ju88C-6 prototypes?

Many thanks for the info Merlin, Leo and Ed!
As usually, an answered question raises more questions:

Will it be worthwhile to purchase the Michael Balss books for futher reference (or even pictures) of R4+LR (360153) and it's pilot A. Molenaar or is the info limited to the data found in the LWFLV losses reports?

Since 360153 was flown by Erg./NJG 2 on that fatal night due to the icey conditions, is there any chance the book Carlsen & Meyer: Die Flugzeugführer-Ausbildung, Band II "Fliegerwaffenschulen und Ergänzungsgruppen" will provide more in-depth stories of Erg./NJG 2 during it's time at Gilze-Rijen?


Quote:
Originally Posted by edNorth
360153 Ju 88 C-6 [RR+SC] Luftwaffe
- Ju 88 C-6 [R4+LR] Erg.St./NJG 2
(Lw.Befh.Mitte) OPS (F) [was returning from operation] crashed (100%) near Breda [i.e. at Ulvenhout near breda, Holland, at 01:40 hrs in night of 16/17.02.1941] 17.02.1942 (F Oblt. Alfred Malonaar, BS Fw. Johann Jost and BF Ofw. Alwin Scheibel killed)
[rep C6 in LWFLV losses 79v18.02.42 amd W.Nr. 153 in h/20.02.42 ~ likely <C6> 360153; rep C6 360153 R4+LR in Michael Balss “Deutsche Nachtjagd”]
Could you explain RR+SC in relation to R4+LR?


Philip (NL)
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  #10  
Old 26th July 2017, 02:24
edNorth edNorth is offline
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Re: The first 4 Ju88C-6 prototypes?

Luftwaffe Codes (indentification) issued at the factory, versus Unit code.
Unit codes changed and same plane could have many. Factory (safety code)
was used when no Unit code was in use, but was also meant be the planes Permanent code, so to speak. I recommend do ones homework (study this) but not rely on asking just here. To fully understand answers here one need have basic knowledge
-Ed
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