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  #1  
Old 8th January 2022, 21:17
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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P51c HSoZ, 260 Sqn, RAF serial?

Hello!

Does anyone know RAF serial for 260 Sqn Mustang coded HSoZ during March-April 1945?

It seems that Roger Freeman in his book "Mustangs at war" states P/O R "Taffy" Williams as the pilot of the Mustang HSoZ in a photo caption.

Thing is that according 260 Sqn ORBs P/O Williams piloted several Mustangs from March 20th (the "First Operation with Rocket Projectiles") to end of April:
KH459 (1 RP flight), KH522 (2 RP flights), KH575 (3), KH595 (3), KH609 (9) and KH629 (5).

Which of those or none was the HSoZ? Does "Taffy" Williams' log book survive?

Photo of Mustang HSoZ in IWM collections (in the background right):
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205383962



Cheers,
Kari

PS Why "P51c"? 260 Sqn ORB gives the aircraft type as such.
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  #2  
Old 9th January 2022, 02:46
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: P51c HSoZ, 260 Sqn, RAF serial?

All seem to be marked as P51c for some reason ?
FB's, FX's and HB's were Mk.III's (P-51c's) KH's were Mk.III's and IV's ( P-51D's), Mk.IV's from KH641.

As you have said P/O.R, Williams flew several aircraft during March/April 1945. As to which one was a/c "Z" at this time I have no idea, but he seems to have flown KH609(Mk.III) quite often. That said there was in March, FB282 (42-103176) and HB900 (42-103869), both Mk.III's.

However there is a problem with KH609, HMAW vol 5 page 346 has KH609 being ditched on the 21/01/1945, Pilot kIA,

Also see Baughers UAAAF serials -
44-11034 to RAF as Mustang III KH609. Ditched off Ravenna Jan 21, 1945 following
engine failure.

So have no idea how it still was airworthy in March/April 1945 ?

Have a great 2022
Alex

Last edited by Alex Smart; 9th January 2022 at 06:49.
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  #3  
Old 9th January 2022, 12:55
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: P51c HSoZ, 260 Sqn, RAF serial?

Hello!

Indeed 260 Sqn ORB has KH609 ditching and Lt Susskind KIA.

From Jan 21st, 1945:
"LT.Susskind called up that his engine had cut. Leader told him to make for Ravenna L.G. The a/c lost height rapidly and landed in the sea 400yds off-shore, sinking immediately and leaving the tail above the water level. Leader orbitted until a Walrus and a launch appeared. LT.Sussking was not seen to get out of the a/c and no dinghy was observed."

But KH609 reappears to service March 3rd, 1945 and flies some 26 sorties until after April 7th does not show any more in records. So quite certainly the aircraft was salvaged and repaired. Too many occasions to be ORB clerical errors.

There was 124 MU at Ancona about 110 miles South of Ravenna. Did they repair Mustangs?

Cheers and nice 2022 to all,
Kari
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Old 9th January 2022, 13:24
SteveB SteveB is offline
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Re: P51c HSoZ, 260 Sqn, RAF serial?

I can't help with Williams' Logbook but I have a transcription of Lyall Fricker's Logbook. He records four flights in KH609/Z during March 1945.
The aircraft movement card records KH609 missing on 21/1/45.
I have no record of Mustangs going to 124 MU. The rocket installations were made at 159 MU at Capodichino/Naples.
I am no expert but I would have thought that it is unlikely that an airframe would be brought back into operations having been immersed in the sea for a period of time.
KH609 last appears on 7/4/45 and there is no explanation in the ORB by way of damage or loss. Aircraft KH595 appears in the ORB on 9/4/45 and Fricker records this aircraft in his Logbook as Z.
I agree with you that it seems unlikely that so many incorrect entries could be made for KH609 but perhaps it was the case that KH595 was recorded incorrectly as KH609.
Steve
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Old 9th January 2022, 14:04
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: P51c HSoZ, 260 Sqn, RAF serial?

Thanks a million SteveB!

260 Sqn ORB has KH595 appearing very shortly in February 1945, too:

KH595
"6/2. 1 P.51c.KH595 P/O R.Williams. Air test. 14.35 14.45"
"8/2. 7 P.51.c. ... KH595 P/O.R.S.Williams. ... Armed attack railway diversion at G.649931. ... 12.40 15.25"

And then again April 9th as you wrote.

If the IWM photo FRE 14856 has been taken May 10th, 1945 ("Production date 1945-10-05") KH595 is more likely to be the aircraft "Z" in the photo.


KH609 would have to be lifted from water almost immediately and then rinsed with fresh water to be repaired airworthy. Later corrosion and electrical problems would be expected anyway, I guess.

Cheers,
Kari
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  #6  
Old 9th January 2022, 23:24
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: P51c HSoZ, 260 Sqn, RAF serial?

OK,
KH609 Ditched off Ravenna, Pilot Killed, body later recovered and laid to rest at Ravenna War Cemetery.
So there is the possibility that the aircraft was also recovered and later returned to service ?

there was also -
Mk.I - AG609 served with 41 OTU.
And
Mk.IV - KM609 but this one went to the Far East, probably India.

Other "609's" were - FR609 a Hadrian II ; HB609 an Argus II.

Stretching it a bit there also served with 260 Squadron HB906, maybe the writer got it wrong and then the wrong number KH609 got continually entered ? I have not looked for HB609 in the ORB.

Last edited by Alex Smart; 9th January 2022 at 23:54.
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  #7  
Old 12th August 2022, 15:30
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: P51c HSoZ, 260 Sqn, RAF serial?

AB's HA100 - HZ999 only has HB609 - DAF CF - Soc 29.8.46.
No mention of 260 ?
Took a look at 260 ORB.
Don't know how many times HB609 is recorded but it is entered on March 7th 1945.
Obviously a typo error as this serial was as you say an Argus II.
So a typo for KH609, or maybe another 609 ???

Last edited by Alex Smart; 13th August 2022 at 03:15.
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  #8  
Old 13th August 2022, 03:49
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: P51c HSoZ, 260 Sqn, RAF serial?

Kari
Those Mustangs were P-51Cs. Early Mk IIIs were P-51Bs, FX/FZ/someFB while some FB/HB/KH were P-51Cs. There were some differnces, eg. P-51Cs had fuselafe tanks, while P-51Bs not, and they were not retrofitted to the latter.
A ditched Mustang, even most likely recovered, was a write off. Repairs would require dismantling the whole aircraft, and structural repairs, and there was no need nor time to do it. Most likely useable parts were salvaged and the rest dumped.
Erroneous serials could appear in ORBs for a long time, not uncommon. So either KH609 was lost in ditching, or it was another aircraft as yet unidentified.
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  #9  
Old 13th August 2022, 14:01
AndyMa AndyMa is offline
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Re: P51c HSoZ, 260 Sqn, RAF serial?

The AM78 record card for KH609 says:
Missing FB 21.1.45
Cat E 22.1.45
SOC 25.1.45
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  #10  
Old 13th August 2022, 14:21
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: P51c HSoZ, 260 Sqn, RAF serial?

Many thank Andy,
So if SOC within days of the accident it must therefore prove that the ORB entries that followed were indeed typo errors after all.
Wonder to which a/c they were in place of ???
Alex
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