German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

[Johannes]

Regarding unconfirmed........Hannes Trautloft's wingman was Otto Kath, but Otto didn't like to fly into enemy territory, so whenever he could when he reached Russian lines he'd make-up some excuse to return to base, so it seems that he would invariably not get his claims confirmed because he had no witness. This should mean that Trautloft was alone when making his claims, in which case he had no witnesses, but by his authority of being Kommodore they were confirmed.
Now Trautloft was well respected, and probably honest.
Rudorffer and Tangermann may well have flown alone as a pair then, and perhaps Rudorffer as Kommandeur of II./JG 54 was able to swing things, whereas the Stabst./JG 51 seemed to fly(oddly) as a much larger group, perhaps even full Staffel strength!

I have calculated Hartmann's crash-sites from grid references if anybody is interested in pinning the guy down, these run until late 1944, I can't really see any point in researching 1945 as for one most of his claims are rather speculative datewise(logbook stolen by the Americans) and two even if the dates are correct the place and time will be unknown!

Regards

Johannes

[Gizmo]

I would like to report a different pair of overclaimers - Hptm. Joachim Kirschner and Fw. Heinrich Bartels of IV/JG 27.

I checked the results of a few battles over the Balkans in the autumn of 1943.

8 October
Claims: 3 P-38 for Bartels. In this combat pilots of III/JG 27 claimed 4 P-38, 1 B-24, 1 B-25 and 1 “Manchester” and Maj, Gustav Rodel of Stab/JG 27 claimed P-38 and B-25.
US losses: 2 P-38 of 82. FG and two B-25 of 321. BG

25 October 3 P-38 and “Whitley” (wrong identification for B-25) for Bartels, 1 P-38 for Kirschner, 2 P-38 for others.
US losses: 1 P-38 of 82. FG.

31 October
Claims: 2 P-38 for Bartels, 1 P-38 for other pilot.
US Losses: no losses for 82. FG which claimed three kills (Oblt. Alfred Burk, an 28-kill ace, killed)

15 November
Claims: 3 P-38and 1 B-25 for Kirschner, 4 P-38 for Bartels, 3 P-38 for Fw. Ernst Hackl and 3 P-38 for others.
US Losses: one P-38 of 1.FG

17 November
Claims: 1 P-38 and 1 B-25 for Kirschner, 2 B-25 and 1 P-38 for Bartels, 2 P-38 and 1 B-25 for others.
US losses: one B-25 of 340. BG

[Nick Hector]

Hi Gizmo,

Firstly: title of the thread is German overclaims in the EAST. Hartmann and others. So we are technically drifting off topic...

However,

Secondly: 15.11.43, several sources say only 2 P-38s lost this day: P-38F-15-LO 43-2184 of 71st FS, 1st FG (definitely to IV/JG 27, James A McClure KIA) and P-38G-10-LO 42-13238 of 82nd FG, but have also found 42-13275 of 5 PRG (12th AAF)

Nick

[Gizmo]

Hi Nick,

I'm missed that it is an Eastern Front topic only, sorry. But if Kirschner and Bartels overclaimed (or simply claimed false reports) over MTO its worth to check their claims against VVS.

Both Lightinigs of 82. FG and 5. PRG are listing as crashed in Yugoslavia (first of them on 14 november) while all IV./JG 27 victories were claimed over south Greece.

[Nick Hector]

Thanks for the correction Gizmo, especially the date of the 82nd FG P-38. I will correct my database accordingly.

Nick

[HGabor]

Perhaps Hartmann...

Folks, not much change 'Pro-Hartmann', but he claimed a Yak-9 on March 6, 1945 as his 341. victory.

Yakovlev Yak-9M of 17 VA, 288 IAD, 897 IAP from Novosibirsk, Zavod 153., S/N: 3315398, (VK-105PF) engine: 425-1347 (or -1317), piloted by 1Lt. Nikolai Andreevich Posuiko belly landed at Gárdony-S, Pusztaszabolcs-NW, in Hungary at 17:30 local time. Target was nearby Börgönd, the plane was hit by small calibre weapons. Pilot injured, - burns on hands and legs, but returned. Plane was written-off. Since there are no details in Hartmann's claim, this COULD BE his victim, but again: there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE for that. (Could be ground fire too, as low-level missions were flown all day long on first day of last German Panzer offensive of WWII.: Frühlingserwachen - Spring Awakening).

Gabor

[Ota Jirovec]

Hello HGabor,

I believe leytenant Posuiko of 897 IAP couldn´t have been Erich Hartmann´s victim as he was already serving as Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 52 in Silesia in March 1945, far away from Hungary. And by the way, is there any reasonably credible source for Hartmann´s claims in 1945? His last claim documented in RLM microfilms seems to be from 9 December 1944....

Ota

[HGabor]

Good point, thanks Ota... I'll be focusing on the claims in 1944 til December 9. Thanks,

Gabor

[GMichalski]

hi,
Gabor,i see your info very interesting..
anyone know who was the probable victor, Hungarian or German?

i see in Osprey 50 aircraft of the aces series Hungarian aces book that:

17th Air Army made 358 sorties this day,
3rd Guards Close-support Wing and 3rd Guards Fighter Wing also 358 sorties, 227 against 635th Panzer Army

regards

[HGabor]

I have no idea. If it was not Hartmann, then probably ground fire. (At least I am not aware of any other Yak claims in the area by Axis fighters.) Small calibre fire during strafing usually meant flak (ground) claim. Ground victories (especially in the final months of the war when Axis Air Forces lost their power) were very common. In fact most of soviet planes were downed by flak, especially the ground attack planes operating in the favourite altitude of German flak batteries. But soviet AAA units were also very successful. Their gunners were famous for being very dangerous and accurate against low flying planes. An interesting story for those interested in Soviet AAA operations:

In the final moments of the battle for Budapest, on February 12, 1945 a Hungarian Bf 109G was downed by soviet flak near Tököl, Budapest-S. (Bf 109G, marking: W-1+61, engine: DB 605: 00707595, piloted by 20 yrs. old Corp. Tábori Sándor. (In soviet report: 18 yrs. old) Plane was downed by Soviet 1614 aer. polk PVO from the distance of 800 m, at the altitude of 300 m. For downing the plane, the four 37 mm AAA cannons fired 65 rounds, while the escorting 12,7 mm DSK-machine gun fired an addition of 12 rounds. The plane got hit and belly-landed on the shore of the Danube. The pilot was captured, beaten badly, his eye got injured, stripped off his clothes and right before being shot on the spot, a merciful Soviet officer arrived, who stopped them and saved his life. (Others were not so lucky...) He was handed over to the 4th Gv. Army. The case was confirmed by the HQ. of the 715 ShAP, stationing on nearby Tököl airfield. (ЦАМО, фонд 17 ВА, опись 6568, дело 57, л. 46) In captivity Tábori got lung-desease that followed him for the rest of his life. He survived the war and later joined the new Hungarian Air Force that he had to leave in the '50s, due to typical, false charges during Communism against the 'old-era officers'. He became a driver and a teacher-engineer. He passed away in 2001.
See his pic.

Gabor

See also: http://www.roncskutatas.hu/node/10862