German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

[Nokose]

GMichalski, All that I could find out is that at least one A-20 belonging to the 453 BAP (218 BAD) 5 VA was shot down on the 17Nov44 by a fighter attack. If there were more I don't have information but maybe one of our Russian members can advise.

[GMichalski]

Hi,
many thanks Nokose,
it helps a lot,
regards

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

I worked with Bernd Barbas on JG 52's claims and can assure you they are more accurate than Tony Woods, primarily because Bernd knew the pilots involved. I will confess regarding fraudulent claims that I have noticed certain traits that would support this, firstly why when a whole Gruppe is in a certain region are almost all made by the same Staffel, also it takes at least two to make fraudulent claims i.e Rudorffer and Tangermann. you can never be sure but I would say the 6./JG 5, 3./JG 54, 3./JG 52 and 9./JG 52 look suspect during 1944, If I had to put money on it I would say that Schall and Anton Resch always seemed to claim together, and are in my mind suspect. Hartmann makes large number claims whilst with Birkner. Another telling point is if they get transfered to the West, or just another unit how different their claims are in volumn.
With 9./JG 52 if false claims are true here, it must have continued for years, so replacement pilots must have been groomed to assist. but generally I have found Jg 52's claims not outrageous. Sad thing is that these overclaimers caused inflation in the medals league, and some appeared to have been so much more deserving than others.
Another thing is that surely the Staffelkapitän if not the Gruppenkommandeur would know what was going on. Remember the four with JG 27 who were reported by another pilot to have fired their ammunition into the desert and reported claims on their return, their C.O immediately started an inquiry, and if you look at their claims they all made large numbers together in a very short time, and didn't do much after.
For most if they were that way inclined it would have to be when the opportunity arose, at other times I guess they were honest by neccessity!

But my only defense for Hartmann is that in August 1944 when he excelerated towards the "300" mark that he was the only pilot in his Staffel actually making claims, so what would be his witnesses motive to confirm his claims, and he also made so few claims over the Il-2, which would make sense, if he had claimed many I would question it as they flew at extremely low altitude, and his claims were almost all at high altitude. Yet Hartmann was not popular with other pilots(for whatever reason) perhaps they suspected that he was a fraud, or perhaps he was just selfish in his pursuit of numbers.......he was also a poor officer.
To actually catch these guys out(and Hartmann should be easy to do, because he was the only guy claiming in the whole Staffel) you would need accurate information on Russian losses, moreover the area they were lost, and accurate claim data, especially again the area of claim, so 1945 would be almost impossible to research as such.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[HGabor]

Guys, as I am having the list of Soviet AC losses in Hungary in 1944-45 (5 and 17 VA by units, dates & locations, aircraft and AC engine serial numbers, markings and crew name(s) from TsAMO archives, Russia) I had the opportunity to compare the facts to German and Hungarian claims. It is true, German statistics have never been in the centre of my research, but I should say (please forgive me) that eg. Hartmann's claims (at least in this time period) are very 'shaky' and in most cases I would NOT put my money down on their credibility. But eg. Hptm. Helmut Lipfert's claims are pretty much accurate, I was able to verify most of them from the soviet loss reports, eg.:

Claim No............Destroyed AC: ............S/N:................Crew:

161. ................Pe-2...........................6/235 .............(3 KIA, Elohov's crew)
172. ................La-5FN....................... 39211399.........(1 KIA, Suhorukhov)
173. ................A-20B........................ 41-2937.......... (4 KIA, Vetlov's crew)
174. ................A-20G.........................43-21588.........(4 KIA, Kruglov's crew)
190. ................IL-2m3 .......................11082..............(2 WIA, Taranovich's crew)
191. ................IL-2m3........................1871797...........(2 KIA, Belyashin's crew)


In my opinion Hartmann's (especially Yak-) claims in most cases were only damaged, but not destroyed.
His 453 BAP Boston claim eg. on November 17, 1944 (S/N: 42-53956 - Danielyan crew) mentioned here by Nokose colleauge as well, was max. a shared victory with Hungarian Capt. Pottyondy Laszlo, but it rather looks that it was Pottyondy's claim, not his... The other A-20G loss on November 17 was also a 453 BAP plane, but in a landing accident during relocation, not combat loss. (S/N: 42-54223, Yurchenko crew. Engines: 42-154065, 42-154199). (No more Bostons on November 17, 1944 in 5 VA.)

On December 14, 1944 17 VA eg. lost 6 IL-2s (S/N: 11429, 11550, 11551, 11553, 11565 and 18862106, plus 7 damaged) as opposed to the 8 German-Hungarian air-, and AAA claims. (No.11551 -from Zavod 1., Kuybishev- is now on display in the Szolnok Aircraft Museum, Hu. It was recovered from Lake Balaton still in 1999. A wingtip of Lipfert's Pe-2 claim from Lake Balaton is also on display in the Museum. Both planes were found in the East-end of the lake near Balatonkenese.)

Gabor

[researcher111]

Johannes,

I have some hard times understanding what you are trying to say on here . I think most of the historians don't consider Hartmann or other Luftwaffe pilots claims as fraudulent neither those from Axis , Russia etc.
Needless to mention that this issue is a real boring one and an over discussed topic which can last forever and ever.

In 80% of the cases such victories of the Axis and Allied Expeditionary Forces were homologated in the late aftermath of WWII. My area of research is the Romanian ,Bessarabia, Moldavia and Ukrainian fronts
period 1941 - 1943 - 1944. Comparing the US & Russian records versus German from their their history books & records .I was able to come up with the conclusions that most of the claims were not accurate many of them totally
inexistent some which were achieved in group then later on individually claimed by oher pilots.

In addition to the available history books,records and archival material on JG 4 ,JG's 51, 52, LG-2 , JG-77, JG-3, JG-53 some pilots wrote own memoirs and books, both from Axis and Allied side, these memoirs too are not 100 %
accurate some even bear doubtful historical records.

As example Mr Prien's records Volume 2 & 4 many of the victories don't match the Russian records neither Russian records fit those of the Luftwaffe , as such and regretfully his great work is by now outdated.
Another example is "Sturmjaeger" of E.Mombeck Band 1, some of the claims of the Luftwaffe pilots during the low Level Raid were also claimed by Romanian pilots and vice versa. On various Russian publications
on Pokrishkin, Koshedub, Retchkalov , Evstigneev, Gulyaev, etc once again many of their claims don't fit the German claims and vice versa ( I read & speak Russian ,German,Romanian etc ) .....

Willi Batz memoirs " Vom Fluglehrer zum Schwertertraeger " is another example of such errors ......a book which historically disappointing lots .

On the various history books and pilot's memoires of 1st FG, 14th FG, 31st FG, 82nd, 325th and 332nd on the Romanian front, same errors versus those of the Luftwaffe & Romanian side are obvious .

Not included on this are the historical records of of 9th (1943) & 15th Air Forces Bomber Groups , RAF 205th GP and those of the Soviets and Luftwaffe BG's in 1944 .... are too subject
to many errors sometimes totally fictious ! Too bad computer age reached us too late .

Long after war's end aerial victories had to be revised and so the various publications written on Hartmann and on all Axis and Allied pilots.

Therefore one should exercise caution when putting such claims into records . One last thing, during his life time I’ve met Erich several times mainly due proximity of our locations.
You will be comforted to know that even he described WWII and his victories as not accurate not on purpose to mislead the people back at home but as a result of the existing logistics,
war doctrine and competition between pilots toward awards and personal benefits. We can endlessly go on and on with this topic , you or other readers don't have to agree , these are facts.

Hope that helps

PS : the shot of Erich's bust posted on the Russian site was mine

[Juha]

Gabor
Very interesting, thanks for sharing the info.

Juha

[researcher111]

Gabor

Like always thank you for your details and deep information, your historical work is highly appreciated at my end.

[HGabor]

You're most welcome! By the way, 42-54223 crashed at Arad (Oradea) airfield... I think this is for you

Gabor

[researcher111]

Gabor

Do you have complete details on 42-54223 ? was it with 244 BAD or with 218 BAD ...I have no tracking details at all....was it Oradea Decampeni ? I think 453 BAP was at that time with 5th BA rather 17 BA ? But you never
know because units from 2nd to 5th and 5th relocated to 17th and vice versa due to specific front needs and that makes the Russian BA's research a pain in the neck.

[HGabor]

Sorry, i'm busy now, but it was 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP:

"Вылетел с аэр. Медиаж на аэр. Арад. Из-за тумана посадка в поле. Самолет разбит, экипаж цел./Переброска лс и лидирование истребителей. в рне 1 км южнее Кебермеш. В акте самолет 254223, моторы 42-154065, 42-154199."

So crashed near Kevermes, Hu at the border, while approaching Arad. (5 VA papers are messy, 17 VA docs are better, having more details. Probably I have to review details again.)