KG.66 Pathfinder Ju.188 @ Havering Atte Bower (Romford), 13th Jan 1944

[Hornchurch]

*

Over the last 6 decades my beer addled memory has taken in certain info'

As is the way with increasing old age, it ebbs & flows with the tide...

I used to know the ins & outs of a duck's ar$e on this one, but now, my memory is weak !

Also, as a direct result, some of the info' I have, might not be correct, but...

As a late teen thru early 20's, I remembered that a Ju.188 had come down near my area

Time lapse, I went looking the other night to TRY to refresh my memory...

This is what (after some vague basic research) I came up with...

Mosquito NF : 13th/14th Jan'44 : Ju.188 : came down at Havering Atte Bower = Bedford's Park = By "Orange Tree Hill"

POST EDIT = 13th Feb' 1944 not January (!)

Sqdn/Ldr James Dean Somerville (Alberta) of 410 Sqdn RCAF : Mosquito

Ju.88 S.1 : Major Helmut Schmidt's unit I/KG.66 "Pathfinder" : 21:10hrs nr Bedford's Pk


Firstly : Can anyone give me or remind ME of it's fuselage codes or werk nummer ?

2nd : Can anyone remind me as to the names of (particularly) it's Pilot & crew ?

3rd : I'm REALLY looking for help in which "After The Battle" magazine I read about it's Pilot being asked & invited (back to Northern Romford) to attend the dig (excavation) of what was left of his machine

4,) Which Volume or episode does it feature in ?

Lastly, I did put a brief comment on the 'Dark Skies' video he recently made on the Ju.188 (please don't berate me on that, PLEASE, as I know he DOES come in for some criticism). Here's what I wrote (to give you an idea of my own local interest in it, where I used to live)

Approx' 1,500yds North from where my Wife 'asked me out' on our very 1st-date, a Ju.88 crashed. In 1978 its German I/KG.66 Pilot WAS asked to attend archaeological site of his WW.II plane! Shot down by an RCAF Mosquito, it was a "Pathfinder" for (Baby Blitz) raids.

Anyone know WHICH 'After The Battle' magazine covered the event ????

I'd like to buy THAT particular magazine (episode) as I have most of their superlative books.

Another crashed at nearby Seven Kings, so that's TWO Ju.188's crashed near where I lived.

Any further details, particularly as regards to which Volume of "After The Battle" magazine that this features in (& the Pilot's name & perhaps return visit) would be appreciated

Thanks in advance... Hawny (aka Hornchurch)

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[DDT]

Good Morning,

I do not that have the magazine, but do have a few books dealing about this period about the air war. None mention a loss of I./KG 66 with a Maj. Schmidt on this date. So I checked the Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries database
by Henry L. deZeng IV and Douglas G. Stankey and here I found 18 Helmut Schmidt's but none of KG 66. Although I found a Hermann Schmidt who was at some time Gr.Kdr. of I./KG 66, but was not shot down over the UK. Hereby a few extracts from the DB:
SCHMIDT, Hermann. (DOB: 27.08.10 in Busendorf Krs. Bolchen/Lothringen).
08.04.43 Maj. (Tr.O.) at BFS 6, trf to Stab/Angriffsführer England as provisional Kdr. I./KG 66.
05.06.43 Maj., appt permanent Kdr. I./KG 66 (to 08.05.45).
17.04.45 Maj., Kdr. I./KG 66 unhurt - Ju 88 G-6 (Z6+AB) damaged by enemy fire vic Tutow-Süd, a/f.
05.45 POW of the British. 11.45 released.
30.09.68 retired from the Bundeswehr as an Oberst.
Credited with 256 missions. †11.01.92 in Wildenroth.
Kind regards,

Dirk

[Chris Goss]

Crash was 13 Feb 44 not January which would have been before Steinbock. Ju 88S-1 140606 Z6+HH of 1./KG 66. Pilot lost control when coned but also claimed by AA and 410 Sqn. Pilot was killed as was BO while the only survivor was the BF who was seriously injured. Uffz Herbert Ehling and Fw Josef Weickert killed, Uffz Helmut Niedack POW

[gogh]

on 2009-05-09 this was given on this site (searched with 260391)
22/23.05.44 Maj., Kommodore KG 2 MIA 50 km S of Lymington, probably due to Mosquito of 125. Sqdn. (Ju 188E-1, U5+AA, WNr. 260391).

[Brian Bines]

Crew details for Ju 88 S1 on 13/14.2.44 :-

Ff Uffz Herbert Ehling + born 7.11.21 posted to KG 66 from BlindFl.Sch 4
in July 1943
Bf Fw Joseph Weickert + born 14.10.19 posted from Epro.Kdo. 188 to KG
66 in July 1943
Bf Uffz Helmut Niedack inj born 4/1.20 posted to KG 66 in July 1943 from
2/ZG 101 on the Russsian Front - baled out injured
If appears that on posting to KG 66 they were sent to IV/KG 6 at Bretigny for training on the Ju 88 returning to KG 66 at Montdidier as operational at the beginning of January 1944 . They flew three previous missions over England being being shot down. The crash site was investigated in 1986 with Helmut Niedack getting his life jacket and helmet back from former Air Raid Warden Len Butcher who had arrested Niedack when he landed on the green at Havering-atte-Bower in 1944 . A local newspaper covered the dig and Niedack's return to the location and it was in Flypast magazine of November 1986 .
In 2011 Niedack's son had a limited edition book published covering his father's life 1940-1947 through a series of photgraphs and documents

As regards Ju 188 E1 of 7/KG2 shot down by AA at 14 Seven Kings Road Ilford on 18/19.4.1944 all crew baled out:-
Ff Ltn Hubert Schymzyk pow
B Uffz Horst Ziehm pow
Bf Joachim Schulz found badly injured in school playground died
of head injuries 21.4.1944
Bm Ofw Robert Rögner pow
Bs Ogef Albert Hoeke landed on roof of a building in the Council Depot
at Ley Street slipped off and killed in fall

[gogh]

Post 7 thank you sir.

[Hornchurch]

*

Wow : Am pretty much speechless, as I wasn't expecting so many replies, or as fast !!

Many Thanks to ALL of you guys for the rapid & detailed responses...

I'll come back to your posts - One at a time, if I may

Thanks again !!

[Hornchurch]

Originally Posted by DDT

Good Morning,

I do not that have the magazine, but do have a few books dealing about this period about the air war. None mention a loss of I./KG 66 with a Maj. Schmidt on this date. So I checked the Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries database
by Henry L. deZeng IV and Douglas G. Stankey and here I found 18 Helmut Schmidt's but none of KG 66. Although I found a Hermann Schmidt who was at some time Gr.Kdr. of I./KG 66, but was not shot down over the UK. Hereby a few extracts from the DB:
SCHMIDT, Hermann. (DOB: 27.08.10 in Busendorf Krs. Bolchen/Lothringen).
08.04.43 Maj. (Tr.O.) at BFS 6, trf to Stab/Angriffsführer England as provisional Kdr. I./KG 66.
05.06.43 Maj., appt permanent Kdr. I./KG 66 (to 08.05.45).
17.04.45 Maj., Kdr. I./KG 66 unhurt - Ju 88 G-6 (Z6+AB) damaged by enemy fire vic Tutow-Süd, a/f.
05.45 POW of the British. 11.45 released.
30.09.68 retired from the Bundeswehr as an Oberst.
Credited with 256 missions. †11.01.92 in Wildenroth.
Kind regards,

Dirk

'


Hi Dirk & many thanks for your reply mate - I'll respond to Chris, next...


Dirk : I fear you may have misconstrued my meaning or intent (?)

Late last night (after a few beers !), all I could dredge up was the info' I listed

Via the 'net, some 14 years down the line, it mentioned Major Helmut Schmidt's unit

By that mate, I mean emphasis on the latter word, "Unit" (I'll guess he was in Command ?)

I wasn't referring to him specifically, but never mind anyways

I am still chuffed (pleased) you posted that info' anyhow, as my knowledge is scant

Thanks again : Regards, "Hawny" aka "Hornchurch"

.

[Hornchurch]

Originally Posted by Chris Goss

Crash was 13 Feb 44 not January which would have been before Steinbock.

Ju 88S-1 140606 Z6+HH of 1./KG 66.

Pilot lost control when coned but also claimed by AA and 410 Sqn.

Pilot was killed as was BO while the only survivor was the BF who was seriously injured.

Uffz Herbert Ehling and Fw Josef Weickert killed, Uffz Helmut Niedack POW

'



Many Thanks indeed Chris for coming 'to my rescue' regarding the specifics

Most importantly : Thanks for the correction on the date : Me being one month "out"

Reading subsequent posts following yours, it's clear that 'discrepancy' helped folks find it

My mistake of assuming it was during the actual 'Steinbock' phase

You & I have conversed before (several times) & trust me, I was REALLY hoping that you (of all people) would "chime up" (laughs !)

I've bought several of your books over the years ("Biscay" springs to mind) & I've always been intrigued

I am sincerely most grateful for the "Fuselage Codes" & work number (serial) too.

Worth noting to folks that don't "know" Romford, Chadwell Heath, or Havering Atte Bower like I do - There was (is) a major London "A.A" site on the far North Eastern edge of Chadwell Heath along the A.12 "Eastern Avenue" which leads immediately to Romford , with both "Bedford's Park" (actual crash site) & the quaint hamlet of "Havering Atte Bower" being imediately to the North (North-East)

IIRC, the "A.A" site now has some (albeit, too late) "listed status" to it's name
Great pity that (actually) NOTHING was done about it for the first 50-years : Typical.

My entire life did/was/had revolved around this entire area, hence my interest.

I say that, as I really do mean the first 42+ years of both mine & my family's life.
We've now (since) moved away 20+ years ago, near some 8th AF B.24 Liberator bases.

I'll take it that "B.F" means "BordFunker" or suchlike ?
( please excuse any mis-spelling ! )

Chris, I notice you mentioned "Uffz Helmut Niedack POW"

It now seems clear that Uffz Helmut Niedack (& not the pilot) was the guy who returned to the archaeological dig site, many decades later.

The actual crash site is just on the edge of "Bedford's Park" near "Orange Tree Hill" as it's known locally -
I can't even begin to tell ya as to just how many times I've been just yards from there !!
Playing football, hide & seek with the kids, watching a Jean Micheal Jarre concert there... & walking out dogs, etc, etc
& always riding both my 1,000cc Suzuki & Kawasaki past that spot.

Indeed there were two other points to mention - Ford Motor Co. had an Admin house (near the "Orange Tree Pub") called "Bower House"
I'm not sure if it's still there, but I remember it being a listed building.

Lastly, 1970's USA Rock Star SUZI QUATTRO had a flash house dead opposite the crash site, tho', back at the height of her stardom, I doubt she knew anything about the wartime incident.

Kind Regards again for the vital info' - It's VERY much appreciated Chris - Thanks.

P.S : I will now correct the title from '188 to '88 - Cheers !!


https://www.lbbd.gov.uk/sites/defaul...-Appraisal.pdf

Pages 13,14 & 15 make for interesting reading !!!!

https://beyondthepoint.co.uk/chadwel...h-haa-battery/ - Despite being 'Historic' you can tell that Graffiti has taken it's toll

I know that Winston Churchill visited the Chadwell Heath (Romford) AA site several times & photographs were taken of him there.

The battery was situated to deal with ALL German Bombers on the Eastern Thames approach to London.

Bet your bottom dollar that THIS Ack Ack battery WERE the ones who co-claimed Niedack's Ju.88-S

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[Hornchurch]

Originally Posted by edNorth

What you ask for are one Ju 188 and one Ju 88 version, not two Ju 188s.

260391 Ju 188 E-1 U5+BN 5./KG 2 (Luftwaffe)
(Feindflug) Eindhofen to Britain/London: missing (100%) 19.04.1944 [was downed by AA fire at Seven Kings Road, Ilford East-London (Britain) at 01:18 hrs, night of 18/19.04.44]

BTW There was no Ju 188 S-1 made, and loss seems not known as an KG 66 Ju 188, but Ju 88 aircraft (below)
However loss date seems a month off, if crash location is correct.

(W.Nr. 0880140606) 140606
New-Conversion to Ju 88 S-1 (BMW 801 engines) [Z6+HH] 1./KG 66 (France) [Y-Gerat Pathfinder] OPS (F) missing (100%) unk location (London) [belived downed by RAF night fighter over Romford, Essex, Britain, at 20:53 hrs] 13.02.1944
(F Uffz. Herbert Ehling and B Fw. Joseph Weickert killed, BF Uffz. Werner Niedack wounded POW)

Best
Ed

'


Hi Ed' & many, many thanks for your reply mate.

It looks like Chris.G "pipped you to the post by 20-mins" regarding the Havering Atte Bower a/c - (But NOT the Seven Kings one : Laughs !)

You have NO idea just how chuffed I am that you've kindly included the details of the 'Seven Kings' Ju.188

I now realise that there IS no '188-S' version, as I've erronously written or copied from elsewhere - (cursory 'net search : "My Bad" !)

Pretty unforgivable about the 188-S "error" - I have about Sixteen Ju.88's spread out over both mine & my folks house - Diecast & 1/48th Kits

It was actually x 18 until some cancerous thieving scum broke into our double garage over Xmas & stole 2 x Dragon Ju.88 G.6's & other stuff

(the above might take some explaining - But it's mostly 1/48th kits, bought new (then) & acquired cheap !!)


Cannot thank you enough for supplying all the details I needed to refresh my memory regarding the Seven Kings Ju.188

It might interest you to know some 'minutae' about the final seconds & crash site aftermath incident - As I recalled it told.


In the final moments of '260391' Ju 188 E-1 coded U5+BN , it's wingtip hit the Neighbouring Church Spire near the Railway Station

The actual address of the Church Spire hit by it's wingtip, is,

Seven Kings Methodist Church - 8a Seven Kings Rd Seven Kings Ilford , IG3 8BY

The wingtip / spire caused it to cartwheel into buildings across the road & from memory, wipe out one house & damage others

I did actually see photographs of the damaged house & environs, but this was (regrettably) decades ago - Oh for a time machine !!


Bizarre co-incidences being what they are - "Navwar" set up a shop mere yards away - A "Wargaming" shop, late 80's early 1990's

I used to park my car (Volvo) next to the Church when visiting to buy 'White Metal' 1/300th scale Micro tanks - (wargaming stuff)

They sold Humbrol Paints & the owner, Tony, made White Metal Naval Ships, again, for wargaming, via mail-order


In 1979, I passed my U.K Driving test, just yards away, as back then, they had a Test Centre at Seven Kings.

Laughably (as ANY U.K driver will tell you), I had to do my 'nerve racking' hill start at that very spot it hit the spire & crashed.

Luckily for me, come 'test day' I got my Mk.I Ford Escort up the top of the hill & the traffic was miraculously clear : Hallelujah !!


I'll supply some 'Google Maps' photographs of where '260391' Ju 188 E-1 coded U5+BN came to earth & crashed




Seven Kings Methodist Church - by Hornchurch_Aerodrome, on Flickr


Photo' No.1 - The Yellow or Amber mark shows "Navwar" the wargame shop & it's proximity to the Church & it's Spire




Seven Kings Methodist Church by Hornchurch_Aerodrome, on Flickr


Photo' No.2 - The Yellow or Amber mark shows where the a/c crashed & hit & demolished the house
@ End of the Parade of shops



Nowadays of course, both the shops & the general area ARE very 'run down' & rather 'low-rent' compared to it's glory days

But it's worth noting that Seven Kings major railway station it just yards to the North from Photo' No.1

I was based there, when working at Ilford car sheds in the 1990's, but grew up locally during the 1960's onwards...


Plessey the elctronics giant had a huge works about 1,700yds, to 2,000yds beyond - to the North-West

Ironic, as another local famous raid took place there (I'm told) & a guy who took cover from the raiders wrote...

" The attack on Ilford by German Focke-Wulf 190 aircraft March 12th 1943 "
It would be a fine day. But visibility early this morning was poor, with misty conditions in low lying Essex along the Thames corridor.
In France, at St. Omer, Focke Wulf 190 fighter bombers were fuelled and armed with cannon shells.
Their 250 & 500kg high explosive bombs were loaded & primed by the ground crews under the command of Oberstleutant Hannes Trauloft.
Stafflekapitan Paul Keller was in charge of planning the operation to destroy the Plessey factory in Ilford,
where electronic equipment for the war effort was being made.
At around 07.15 hours the ground crews closed the cockpit covers and the aircraft taxied away, rising to begin their mission..."

I know the raid WAS intercepted by Mk.IX Spitfires from North Weald - 331 Sqdn, IIRC, led by a Danish commander ("Birksted")

Surprising just how much astonishing amounts of air activity all took place, literally just a stones throw from each other in my local area !!


Lastly Ed' : Regarding thread subject - Yes, I was "one month out" as Chris pointed out - 13th Feb', not January

I've tried (desperately hard) to ammend the main title, but, it seems like only the sub-title is open for correction, oh well...

I've mentioned the other details ("Niedack") in my previous post, so it now tallies up with what you've written

Regards, "Hawny" aka "Hornchurch"

P.S : Just North (N.E.) of Seven Kings is the satellite airfield to North Weald, named "RAF Fairlop" - I was born about 1,700yds away !!!!!

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