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Old 28th April 2007, 06:57
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Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44

On the 17Oct44 the Groupie Normandie came to the rescue of a group of Pe-2 of the 135 GBAP east of Gumbinnen that had just bombed the R.R. station at Trakhenen. Sous Lt Charles Miquel and Sous Lt Maurice Challe shot down two Bf-109's. Does anyone know the times that they shot them down and if it was from JG52? I don't know if JG51 was flying any Bf-109's at that time.
Best Regards,
Michael
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Old 28th April 2007, 07:46
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
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Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44

The time was 1200 according to the Journal de Marche, page 117. Challe's claim was at 10 km E of Goumbinen, Schurguponen, while Miquel's was 5 km S of Goumbinnen. I have no idea of the German unit involved.

Frank.
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Old 28th April 2007, 10:54
David P. Williams David P. Williams is offline
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Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44

Hi Michael,

I'm not sure whether this is just a coincidence but Oberleutnant Toni Hafner of 8.JG 51 (Knight's Cross with Oak leaves) was shot down that day in East Prussia near to Schweizersfelde. He was flying Bf 109G-6 442013 Black 1.
Now talking to Horst Petzschler about this incident he has always insisted that it was elements from Groupie Normandie that were responsible for shooting Hafner down. I have tried to locate Schweizersfelde but have been unable to do so, although i know exactly where Gumbinnen is in East Prussia. Is it a coincidence, i don't know but worth thinking about. Hope it helps.
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Old 28th April 2007, 16:30
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Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44

Thanks for the replies. I can't find anything in Tony Woods Lists to match the 12:00 time frame even it it was using Moscow time. The source I read stated that M.Lt Vasilli Koval's Pe-2 went down after the French pilots arrived. Kovals died but his crew bailed. Anton Hafner shot down a Pe-2 in that area at 04:47 and a Yak-7 at 09:55. I know the claims at Tony woods list aren't complete. The 09.55 would be close using Berlin time compared to Moscow time. The source I read didn't give a time for the bomber raid just that they made the rescue.
Thanks again,
Michael
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Old 29th April 2007, 03:56
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44

Hello Nokose!
I am with the book of Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt published by Éditions Heimdal in France. On pg 51 we do have a fairly good account of the activities of Normandie-Niemen on 17th October:
The first mission took place around 9:00h. Sky 4/5 covered. Cmdt. Pouyade led 31 Yak 3 + 2 Yak 9 to escort 54 Pe-2 + 18 A-20 Boston to an area around Eydtkunnen ( north of Goritten, some 30km ESE of Stalluponen ). Schoendorff got a Bf 109 ( I will only quote the Bf 109 claims, ok ? )
Around 12:00h Maurice Challe and Miquel got one Bf 109 apiece
It seems that JG 51 los 3 young new pilots and Oblt Anton Hafner - which, according to the book ( pg.53 ) hit a tree while chasing a Yak 9, very close to Schweizerfelde ( this one I did not find on the map ).
I do hope this will add a bit more to the picture. So, it seems Hafner was involved on the afternoon mission of Normandie-Niemen.

Friendly yours

Adriano
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Old 29th April 2007, 20:49
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Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44

Adriano, Thanks for your reply. Did Groupie Normandie suffer any losses in planes (loss or damaged during this day)? Schweizersfelde is the next location to the southwest of Puspern.
Thanks again,
Michael
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Old 30th April 2007, 11:56
Steve49 Steve49 is offline
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Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44

According to 'French Eagles, Soviet Heroes' by J.D Clarke the two Bf109's shot down by Challe and Miquel were claimed in the Goumbinnen region during a patrol launched at 12.30.

One aircraft (flown by Aspirant Jean Emonet) was shotdown during a mission (launched at 09.20) to escort three groups of Pe2's. Two aircraft (flown by Aspirnat Miquel Lorillon and Aspirnat Gael Taburet) are noted as being damaged during the day, though it is not clear during which of the regiments clashes this occured.

Regards

Steve Pegge
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Old 30th April 2007, 12:49
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Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44

Emonet: during the mission starting at 09.20.
Lorillon: rammed a Fw, crash-landed inverted! - mission starting at 14.00
Taburet: nothing on him on that day.
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Old 1st May 2007, 05:05
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Re: Groupe Normandie on 17Oct44

While looking at the losses in Tony Woods list it seems that 2/JG52 was in that area. Does anyone know if the grid for them on the 17Oct44 is further to the south in Rumania? If not this is probably also a unit that Groupe Normandie engaged this date.
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Old 1st May 2007, 08:05
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Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44

Hi,

they were between 17.10 and 19.10.44 in Trakehnen.
On the 17.10 at 08.00 hours Olt.Trenkel shot down one Pe-2. But few moments later he and his wingman - OFhr.Windisch- were chased by fighter escort (Jak-3). Both were shot down but Windisch was yet able to shot down one russian fighter (at 08.05 hours). Trenkel emergency-landed (belly-landed) and Windisch bailed out - both in the Ebenrode area.

Robert
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