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Old 25th May 2008, 12:22
Gary_D Gary_D is offline
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Definition of combat sorties

In August 1942 the USSR Peoples Commissariat of Defense issued an order which severely limited the definition of "combat sortie" for fighter pilots. This was important because in 1941 a series of awards for pilots had been established. For example, a fighter pilot was awarded 1,000 rubles for an aerial kill and made a Hero of the Soviet Union for 10 aerial kills. The August 1942 order defined combat sortie for fighters as follows:

1. A sortie in which the fighter pilot engages in aerial combat.
2. A sortie in which, while escorting shturmoviks or bombers on a combat mission, the escorted planes do not suffer any losses from enemy fighters.

If this definition is much more restrictive than other nations' definition, it could really screw up comparisons of sortie rates between countries.

Can someone say if the Germans, Americans, or Brits had a similarly restrictive definition?
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Old 25th May 2008, 12:47
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Re: Definition of combat sorties

I think another important question is if this ruling held out for the duration of the war, or was limited to a certain period. Also if this ruling was in general, or linked to an award system. If the latter, than like the RVT point system, it might confuse the picture.
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Old 26th May 2008, 01:35
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Re: Definition of combat sorties

Yes it is. In German losses a sortie was described as either a Feindflug ('F') or Heimatflug ('H'). The Heimatflug description was generally assigned to flights consisting of moving from one base to another, test flights, training flights or flights of aircraft generally not considered frontline combat types. This last is somewhat blurred based on what the end-result of the flight may have been. There are likely other types of flights as well. A Feindflug pretty much includes everything else - standing patrols and whatever. Not particularly definitive, but certainly different to the Soviet description.
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Old 26th May 2008, 10:31
Gary_D Gary_D is offline
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Re: Definition of combat sorties

My first post should have also said that monetary awards were given just for flying certain kinds of combat missions. For example, a fighter pilot received 2,000 rubles for completing 15 ground attack missions, 3,000 rubles for 25 ground attack missions, and so on.
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Old 26th May 2008, 12:51
kalender1973 kalender1973 is offline
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Re: Definition of combat sorties

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Originally Posted by Gary_D View Post
In August 1942 the USSR Peoples Commissariat of Defense issued an order which severely limited the definition of "combat sortie" for fighter pilots. This was important because in 1941 a series of awards for pilots had been established. For example, a fighter pilot was awarded 1,000 rubles for an aerial kill and made a Hero of the Soviet Union for 10 aerial kills. The August 1942 order defined combat sortie for fighters as follows:

1. A sortie in which the fighter pilot engages in aerial combat.
2. A sortie in which, while escorting shturmoviks or bombers on a combat mission, the escorted planes do not suffer any losses from enemy fighters.

If this definition is much more restrictive than other nations' definition, it could really screw up comparisons of sortie rates between countries.

Can someone say if the Germans, Americans, or Brits had a similarly restrictive definition?
As russian saying mean "the russian rigidity of the act will be compensate with non-compliance". This definition of sortie of august 42 is one example for this saying. In the fact, this order was issued by Stalin in august 42. The background of the order was the letter signed by General Zhukov, Novikow(VVS chief) and Malenkow(member of party leadership). In this letter they described the poor behavior and low moral of the soviet fighter and their inability to protect the own attack planes and own ground troops from german air attacks. Therefore this order was issued and should improve the situation in the figther regiments. But it is not known, that this order was really applied and after some weeks and the situation stabilizing it was practical forgoten, what the definition of sortie concern.

A summer 42 was really hard for soviet goverment and Stalin personally, therefore many such rigid orders were issued, some kind of panic reaction.

The Luftwaffe definition is also complicate. It was different kind of sortie as Feindflug, doppelte Feindflug, Einsatzflug, Frontflug etc. I would say, the german bureaucracy is the best

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Old 10th March 2009, 02:16
robin prior robin prior is offline
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Re: Definition of combat sorties

does anyone know the daily number of sorties flown by the Luftwaffe during the Battle of britain? The B of B web site gives figures but it is not clear if these are sorties or planes. There is also no source given. Can anyone help\
Robin prior
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Old 10th March 2009, 14:40
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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Re: Definition of combat sorties

Robin, I suggest you look at Battle of Britain, Then and Now and The Blitz Then and Now, both published by After The Battle in Britain.
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Old 10th March 2009, 17:58
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Re: Definition of combat sorties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary_D View Post
In August 1942 the USSR Peoples Commissariat of Defense issued an order which severely limited the definition of "combat sortie" for fighter pilots. This was important because in 1941 a series of awards for pilots had been established. For example, a fighter pilot was awarded 1,000 rubles for an aerial kill and made a Hero of the Soviet Union for 10 aerial kills. The August 1942 order defined combat sortie for fighters as follows:

1. A sortie in which the fighter pilot engages in aerial combat.
2. A sortie in which, while escorting shturmoviks or bombers on a combat mission, the escorted planes do not suffer any losses from enemy fighters.

If this definition is much more restrictive than other nations' definition, it could really screw up comparisons of sortie rates between countries.

Can someone say if the Germans, Americans, or Brits had a similarly restrictive definition?
USAAF defined a sortie as a completed mission in which the pilot/crew went all the way to the objective and RTB. Had nothing to do with victories or other metrics
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Old 10th March 2009, 23:36
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Definition of combat sorties

I remember reading that at least in some cases, German pilots scrambled to intercept Allied raids and failing to so were denied to add a sortie to their count.

It seems to me that any flight over enemy land or meeting enemy aircraft was a sortie for German fighters.

But as had been said above, I guess it will vary depending of the time and unit involved.
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Old 11th March 2009, 00:29
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Re: Definition of combat sorties

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Originally Posted by Jim P. View Post
Yes it is. In German losses a sortie was described as either a Feindflug ('F') or Heimatflug ('H').
And there are also logbook entries for "Frontflug" which the pilot did not include in his running total of Feindflüge. I don't know for certain what the distinction was, perhaps staying over one's own lines (e.g. patrolling) and not encountering the enemy?

Muddying the waters yet more, Nachtschlacht pilots in the East did not include anti-partisan operations as Feindflüge either, I guess because they stayed behind German lines.
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