Question about Jagdgeschwader claims for July 1941

[oquaig]

Hi Guys,
In reading through the accounts for JG 27, JG 52, JG 53, JG 51 I have found a gap in claims for these Jagdgeschwader for the period July 16 thru 21 July. I am certain they were shooting down Soviet planes during this period but I have not found any reports or scores. Was this a period of bad weather? Another thing I have noticed are how few claims are talked about concerning I-16 and I-153 shot down ...were they just too uninteresting to recall in a narrative? More than half of all VVS fighters available in this sector were these types. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Thanks

[Nokose]

What sources are you looking through for this information?

[oquaig]

I was looking at the Osprey and Kagero series on the various JGs, Black Cross Red Star (BCRS). If you know better (and easily accessible sources) I'm all eyes...

[Nokose]

Osprey has one that I see that might give you a lttle information. Polikarpov I-15, I-16 and I-153 aces by Mikhail Maslov and Mark Postlethwaite. Then if you are looking for the claims that were made by these units it helps if you read German because the best source there is Die Jagdfliegerverbaende Teil 6 volume I and II by Jochen Prien. Then there are Russian magzines and books. Then also in English is "From Barbarossa to Odessa volume 1 & 2 by Denes Bernad. If you haven't tried it yet use a translator program and go to www.allaces.ru some of the material is Soviet era and may not be up to date.

[oquaig]

Thanks for the reply,

As for VVS loss reports a good deal of that I already have (V. V. Kharin's site at Allaces I use almost daily but thanks for the reference)...what I am looking for are the Jagdgeschwader claims for a very specific time period 16-21 July in Army Group Center, II amd VIII Fliegerkorps for comparison to
the VVS data. From Barbarossa to Odessa by Denes Bernad is a great book and I own both volumes but it does not deal with the Smolensk operation. Herr Jochen Prien is out of my price range right now. Without investing a large amount of time and resources to researching this I thought I'd try here first.
thanks again
Oquaig

[Maxim1]

Here is what I have:

16-7-1941 Oblt. Rudolf von Mentzingen Stab/JG 3 DB-3 - 11.50 (1)
16-7-1941 Fw. Otto Tange 5./JG 51 DB-3 3km S. Smolensk 12.45 (13)
16-7-1941 Fw. Friedrich Heimann 5./JG 51 V-11 E. Stara Bychow 16.12 (5)
16-7-1941 Ltn. Hans Strelow 5./JG 51 V-11 E. Stara Bychow 16.16 (3)
16-7-1941 Uffz. Hermann Aubrecht 5./JG 51 V-11 - 19.05 (6)
16-7-1941 Ltn. Georg Seelmann 11./JG 51 DB-3 - 10.12 (20)
16-7-1941 Fw. Heinrich Klöpper 11./JG 51 DB-3 5km E. Gusino 10.14 (8)
16-7-1941 Uffz. Franz-Josef Beerenbrock 12./JG 51 DB-3 - 09.20 (12)
16-7-1941 Uffz. Franz-Josef Beerenbrock 12./JG 51 DB-3 - 09.25 (13)
16-7-1941 Ofw. Heinrich Hoffmann 12./JG 51 DB-3 - 09.25 (20)
16-7-1941 Ofw. Heinrich Hoffmann 12./JG 51 DB-3 - 09.28 (21)
16-7-1941 Oblt. Karl-Gottfried Nordmann 12./JG 51 DB-3 S. Smolensk 12.30 (29)
16-7-1941 Ltn. Erwin Fleig 1./JG 51 V-11 15km SE Tschenkow 19.15 (22)
16-7-1941 Oblt. Walter Stengel 6./JG 51 I-16 Rata - - (9)
16-7-1941 Hptm. Richard Leppla Stab III./JG 51 V-11 - 18.25 (26)
16-7-1941 Major Günther Lützow Stab/JG 3 SB-2 - - (37)
16-7-1941 Major Günther Lützow Stab/JG 3 I-16 Rata - - (38)
16-7-1941 Major Günther Lützow Stab/JG 3 DB-3 - - (39)
16-7-1941 Ltn. Detlev Rohwer Stab I./JG 3 SB-3 10km E. Berditschew 15.25 (17)
16-7-1941 Oblt. Hans-Jürgen Borchers Stab I./JG 3 SB-3 10km E. Berditschew 15.26 (4)
16-7-1941 Ltn. Detlev Rohwer Stab I./JG 3 SB-3 10km E. Berditschew 15.28 (18)
16-7-1941 Ltn. Detlev Rohwer Stab I./JG 3 SB-3 10km E. Berditschew 15.30 (19)
16-7-1941 Oblt. Hans-Jürgen Borchers Stab I./JG 3 SB-3 10km E. Berditschew 15.32 (5)
16-7-1941 Ltn. Eberhard Eichner 1./JG 3 SB-3 - - (3)
16-7-1941 Oblt. Robert Olejnik 1./JG 3 SB-3 - - (31)
16-7-1941 Oblt. Robert Olejnik 1./JG 3 SB-3 - - (32)
16-7-1941 Ofhr. Fred Neumayer 1./JG 3 SB-3 - - (2)
16-7-1941 Uffz. Johannes Schiffer 1./JG 3 SB-3 - - (10)
16-7-1941 Fw. Detlev Lüth 1./JG 3 SB-3 - - (9)
16-7-1941 Hptm. Gordon Gollob Stab II./JG 3 DB-3 - 11.42 (15)
16-7-1941 Hptm. Gordon Gollob Stab II./JG 3 SB-2 - 11.44 (16)
16-7-1941 Oblt. Heinz Schönefeldt Stab II./JG 3SB-2 - 11.43 -
16-7-1941 Oblt. Walther Dahl Stab II./JG 3 I-16 S. Koziatyn 15.45 (2)
16-7-1941 Oblt. Herbert Kijewski 5./JG 3 E/a - 16.25 (14)
16-7-1941 Fw. Walter Ohlrogge 5./JG 3 E/a - 16.25 -
16-7-1941 Oblt. Georg Michalek 4./JG 3 RZ - 18.45 (12)
16-7-1941 Oblt. Viktor Bauer 9./JG 3 DB-3 10km E. Pawolotsch 10.40 (35)
16-7-1941 Ltn. Helmut Mertens 9./JG 3 I-153 Starischtsche 12.20 (15)
16-7-1941 Ofw. Hans Stechmann 9./JG 3 I-153 Starischtsche 12.21 (25)
16-7-1941 Ltn. Helmut Mertens 9.JG 3 I-153 Starischtsche 12.21 (16)
16-7-1941 Ofw. Hans Stechmann 9./JG 3 I-153 Starischtsche 12.24 (26)
16-7-1941 Ltn. Helmut Mertens 9./JG 3 I-153 Starischtsche 12.24 (17)
16-7-1941 Oblt. Kurt Sochatzy 7./JG 3 SB-3 - 15.23 (25)
16-7-1941 Oblt. Kurt Sochatzy 7./JG 3 SB-3 - 15.25 (26)
16-7-1941 Uffz. Hans Schleef 7./JG 3 SB-3 - 15.26 (8)
16-7-1941 Uffz. Hans Schleef 7./JG 3 SB-2 - 15.26 (9)
16-7-1941 Fw. Georg Schentke 9./JG 3 I-16 - 16.00 (25)
16-7-1941 Fw. Georg Schentke 9./JG 3 DB-3 15km E. Kasatyn 16.00 (26)
16-7-1941 Fw. Gotthard Glaubig 8./JG 3 R-Z - 17.35 (3)
16-7-1941 Ltn. Wilhelm Lemke 8./JG 3 R-Z Belaja-Zerkow 17.35 (10)
16-7-1941 Fw. Gerhard Gleuwitz 6./JG 52 SB-2 10km N. Salutsche 14.00 (5)
16-7-1941 Gefr. Walter Heck 5./JG 54 I-153 - 16.35 (1)
16-7-1941 Uffz. Erwin Stalp 6./JG 54 SB-2 - 18.50 (3)
16-7-1941 n.n. Stab/ZG 76 I-16 -
16-7-1941 n.n. Stab/ZG 76 I-16 -
16-7-1941 n.n. Stab/ZG 76 I-16 -
16-7-1941 Major Günther von Maltzahn Stab/JG 53 SB-3 - 07.50 (36)
16-7-1941 Ofw. Hans Kornatz 2./JG 53 DB-3 10km S. Wassilkow 07.25 (5)
16-7-1941 Ofw. Hans Kornatz 2./JG 53 SB-3 6km E. Fasslow 11.20 (6)
16-7-1941 Ltn. Norbert Schäfer 1./JG 53 DB-3 - 11.24 (1)
16-7-1941 Oblt. Hans Ohly 1./JG 53 DB-3 NE Ziabel 11.25 (10)
16-7-1941 Ltn. Heinrich von Schwerdtner 2./JG 53 DB-3 - 11.30 (4)
16-7-1941 Ltn. Norbert Schäfer 1./JG 53 DB-3 - - (n.b.)
16-7-1941 Oblt. Werner Ursinius 3./JG 53 DB-3 Korosten 12.35 (2)
16-7-1941 Uffz. Herbert Rollwage 4./JG 53 SB-2 - - (n.b.)

[Jim P.]

Would second Nokose's recommendations. The 'Die Jagdfliegerverbaende' Teil 6 volume I and II by Jochen Prien, along with the other volumes in the series fill in many 'holes' in Tony's transcribed lists, as well as correcting many mistakes (and I hate to call them mistakes because he, as well as other authors, was transcribing from hand written documents) along with errors from previously published sources. This is true of all previously published lists. 'Die Jagdfliegerverbaende' - all volumes in the series, have significant differences in what may have been previously published for all units.

[oquaig]

Wow, Thanks Maxim1,
That is a pretty impressive list for 16 July. One question: what type of aircraft do you think the "SB-3" claims are for? A typo? Ar-2?
But thanks all the same

Oquaig

[Maxim1]

Originally Posted by oquaig

One question: what type of aircraft do you think the "SB-3" claims are for? A typo? Ar-2?

Sorry, no idea. We can just say one thing, it was a Russian twin-engine bomber.

17-7-1941 Uffz. Walther Hillgruber 9./JG 27 DB-3 Pnewo 03.42 3
17-7-1941 Fw. Walter Matoni 9./JG 27 DB-3 Pnewo 03.45 2
17-7-1941 Uffz. Wilhelm Theimann 3./JG 51 SB-3 - 04.49 3
17-7-1941 Ofw. Anton Lenz 3./JG 51 SB-3 - 04.50 1
17-7-1941 Ofw. Anton Lenz 3./JG 51 SB-3 - 04.52 2
17-7-1941 Uffz. Herbert Broennle 2./JG 54 I-18 - 18.20 6
17-7-1941 Ltn. Erwin Leykauf 8./JG 54 RZ - 11.30 10
17-7-1941 Gefr. Josef Kaltenbach 1.(Erg)/JG 54 I-15 Südspitze ösel 06.40 1
17-7-1941 Ltn. Erwin Fleig 1./JG 51 SB-2 - 04.55 23
17-7-1941 Ltn. Erwin Fleig 1./JG 51 SB-2 - 04.56 24
17-7-1941 Uffz. Heinz Falk 1./JG 51 Pe-2 - 05.02 1
17-7-1941 Fw. Werner Bielefeldt 7./JG 51 SB-2 20km SE Bobruisk 11.25 14
17-7-1941 Uffz. Herbert Buschmann 7./JG 51 SB-2 - - 5
17-7-1941 Major Günther Lützow Stab/JG 3 DB-3 - - 40
17-7-1941 Ofw. Hermann Kniewasser 2./JG 3 SB-2 bis 15km S. Wassilkow 17.40 6
17-7-1941 Ltn. Kurt Eichler 2./JG 3 SB-2 bis 15km S. Wassilkow 17.45 5
17-7-1941 Fw. Ernst Heesen 2./JG 3 SB-2 bis 15km S. Wassilkow 17.45 8
17-7-1941 Ofw. Erwin Kortlepel 4./JG 3 DB-3 W. Motowilowka 14.40 11
17-7-1941 Ofw. Heinrich Brenner 4./JG 3 DB-3 N. Rozyn 14.40 2
17-7-1941 Oblt. Franz Beyer 8./JG 3 SB-3 - 16.03 21
17-7-1941 Fw. Gotthard Glaubig 8./JG 3 SB-3 - 16.04 4
17-7-1941 Oblt. Franz Beyer 8./JG 3 SB-3 - 16.05 22
17-7-1941 Ltn. Wilhelm Lemke 8./JG 3 DB-3 Rakitno 16.12 11
17-7-1941 Oblt. Franz Beyer 8./JG 3 DB-3 - 19.10 23
17-7-1941 Fw. Gotthard Glaubig 8./JG 3 DB-3 - 19.11 5
17-7-1941 Uffz. Heinz Kemethmüller 8./JG 3 DB-3 - 19.15 2
17-7-1941 n.n. I./JG 54 I-18 - -
17-7-1941 n.n. I./JG 54 I-18 - -
17-7-1941 Oblt. Rudolf Resch 6./JG 52 SB-2 - 13.12 3
17-7-1941 Fw. Gerhard Gleuwitz 6./JG 52 SB-2 - 13.14 6
17-7-1941 Oblt. Wolfgang Späte 5./JG 54 I-153 NW Ssoltzy 06.30 13
17-7-1941 Hptm. Franz Eckerle 6./JG 54 SB-2 - 09.35 15
17-7-1941 Ltn. Hans Beisswenger 6./JG 54 SB-2 - 09.37 10
17-7-1941 Uffz. Erwin Stalp 6./JG 54 SB-2 - 09.37 4
17-7-1941 Ltn. Josef Pöhs 5./JG 54 DB-3 - 16.50 21
17-7-1941 Oblt. Wolfgang Späte 5./JG 54 DB-3 E. Samra-See 20.30 14
17-7-1941 Uffz. Friedrich Zander 5./JG 54 DB-3 - 20.35 6
17-7-1941 Oblt. Friedrich-Wilhelm Strakeljahn 2.(J)/LG 2 I-16 Rata - 06.07 7
17-7-1941 Ltn. Ludwig Theopold 3.(J)/LG 2 I-16 Rata - - -
17-7-1941 Uffz. Otto Riedel 3.(J)/LG 2 I-16 Rata - - -
17-7-1941 Fw. Helmut Braukmann 3.(J)/LG 2 SB-2 - - 4
17-7-1941 Hptm. Franz von Werra Stab I./JG 53 I-153 - 17.50 11

[Maxim1]

18-7-1941 Oblt. Erbo von Kageneck 9./JG 27 DB-3 E. Demidow 13.29 27
18-7-1941 Gefr. Peter Bremer 2./JG 54 I-18 - 07.25 2
18-7-1941 Gefr. Rudolf Gerecke 2./JG 54 SB-3 - 16.46 3
18-7-1941 Ofw. Karl Fuchs 2./JG 54 SB-3 - 13.52 5
18-7-1941 Uffz. Herbert Broennle 2./JG 54 I-16 Rata - 18.31 7
18-7-1941 Ltn. Hans-Leopold Henkemeier 1.(Erg)/JG 54 DB-3 75km NW Riga 13.20 1
18-7-1941 Ofw. Erwin Kortlepel 4./JG 3 I-16 10km S. Rozyn 14.00 12
18-7-1941 Uffz. Kuno Bälz 4./JG 3 I-16 10km S. Rozyn 14.01 3
18-7-1941 Uffz. Fritz Tegtmeier 2./JG 54 I-18 - 13.54 4
18-7-1941 Oblt. Gerhard Wengel Stab I./JG 54 I-18 20km SE Narwa 20.03 1
18-7-1941 Uffz. Alfred Kromer 9./JG 54 Pe-2 - - n.b.
18-7-1941 Uffz. Paul Eberhardt 7./JG 52 MBR-2 70km E. Kostanza 17.50 3
18-7-1941 Uffz. Paul Eberhardt 7./JG 52 MBR-2 70km E. Kostanza 17.50 4
18-7-1941 Ltn. Josef Pöhs 5./JG 54 I-16 - 04.32 22
18-7-1941 Uffz. Günter Range 5./JG 54 I-16 - 04.32 2
18-7-1941 Ltn. Josef Pöhs 5./JG 54 I-16 - 04.45 23
18-7-1941 Oblt. Hans Philipp 4./JG 54 I-18 - 09.00 39
18-7-1941 Oblt. Hans Philipp 4./JG 54 I-18 - - 40
18-7-1941 Oblt. Hans Philipp 4./JG 54 I-18 - 14.55 41
18-7-1941 Ltn. Josef Pöhs 5./JG 54 I-18 - 16.25 24
18-7-1941 Major Günther von Maltzahn Stab/JG 53 SB-3 - 12.05 37
18-7-1941 Major Günther von Maltzahn Stab/JG 53 SB-3 - 12.08 38
18-7-1941 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Heinecke Stab/JG 53 SB-3 E. Shitomir 12.11 7
18-7-1941 Ltn. Walter Zellot 1./JG 53 Pe-2 S. Wassilkow 04.50 7
18-7-1941 Fw. Ludwig Reibel 1./JG 53 Pe-2 N. Wassilkow 04.50 5
18-7-1941 Fw. Heinrich Leschert 3./JG 53 SB-3 - 12.03 4
18-7-1941 Hptm. Franz von Werra Stab I./JG 53 SB-3 - 12.03 12
18-7-1941 Ltn. WolfgangTonne Stab I./JG 53 SB-3 - 12.08 13