HE-219 and DB 603G Engines

[Glimspur]

Hi, does anyone have any information as to whether or not the He-219 was ever equipped with the DB603G engines. If so, how many aircraft were issued and during what time frame? What was the aircraft's designation?

Thanks Much!
David

[Jon]

Hi.
The HE 219 A-7 was fitted with the DB603G.
It was the last production version, i am sorry i can't answer your other questions but can tell you that the A-7 was the high altitude heavily armoured version. Very capable of destroying its main prey the Lancaster and Halifax but was so full of avionics, weapons , ejection seats, armour etc.. that it weighed more Empty than a fully loaded Mosquito or JU88 Night fighter.
Still a fantastic aircraft.

Hope this helps.
Jon [/b]

[George Hopp]

NO, NO, NO, the He 219 was never powered by the DB 603G because the DB 603G never went into production! In fact, development of that engine had been stopped by August 1944. The DB 603E went into production in late 1944, but there is no verification of any of these engines finding their way into the He 219.

The highest verified mark of the He 219 was the A-5/R2 which was still powered by the DB 603A engine. That was W.Nr. 310 189, G9+CL, which was taken to the UK at war`s end and scrapped in 1948. It was a prototype for that mark. The last actual production version was the A-2. The last C-Amts listing I have is for Nov 44. In it the listing for the He 219 shows that in that month, 19 He 219A-2s were producted and another 15 He 219s were upgraded to A-2 standard. Artie may have figures on He 219 production into 1945.

And, yes, I do have Roland Remp`s excellent book on the He 219; but, about the A-7 he is wrong.

[ArtieBob]

The copy of the January 1945 production list (graciously given to me by another Luftwaffe researcher indicates that there were 35 He 219 A-7sa and 1(one!) D-1 delivered. What subtype engines are not shown in the list. I do have a little information on the DB 603G, but it is pretty well buried right now. There is a note in the FW prototype data that 8-190 V32 was sent to DB in late 1943 for DB 603G testing.

Best regards,

Artie Bob

[George Hopp]

Artie,
Just what kind of rubbish are you trying to feed us. Remember, April Idiot's Day is still three months away. Or is your "fellow Luftwaffe researcher" blowing smoke all over you?

You want us to believe that although Heinkel was able to produce just 25 He 219s during Sept. 1944 – the Luftwaffe's greatest month of production – and with the Reich's infrastructure hurting but still mainly intact; it was able to produce fully 35 of them, or 40% more, four months later at a time when the country had already entered final melt-down?

And then, you are saying that some RLM burocrat put his head on the chopping block to take at least 76 brand-new, high-performance engines from a/c in the Reich's Emergency Program, and hand them over to an aircraft not on that list? The only reason the He 219 program continued at all after July 1944 was as a place to use up the excess stock of DB 603A engines -- since the other two users, the Do 217 and the Me 410, had been cancelled -- and when they ran out so would He 219 production. Or does the listing have something to say on that also?

Happy New Year,
Felix

PS. In its letter to VDM on 8.8.44, DB noted the following engines either in development or production: DB 603 A, AA, AS, E, L, N, S and U;
DB 605 A-B, AS-BS, D-E, T; DB 610 A-B; and, DB 613 A-B. It also mentions the following sub-types equipped with MW 50 units: DB 603 AM, AAM, ASM, EM, LM; DB; DB 605 AM-BM, ASM-BSM, MM-DM (?), and L. As you can see, no 603G. So, if the a/c had switched to the Jumo 213E, given as an alternate engine in Remp's book, there would have had to have been months of modifications to resize everything for the new engine, and we have seen none of that. The only feasible alternative would have been the use of the DB 603E engine, which began production in late 1944. But, it was already ear-marked for the Do 335, and anyway would have resulted in a designation of 219 A-5/6, not A-7.

[robert_schulte]

George,
I'm not an expert on He 219, so please forgive me, but as you say that Remp is wrong with the DB 603 G, is he also wrong with the production numbers? He gives the production per three months on page 149 of his book and there he states, that highest production was last three month of 1944 with 63 planes and only one plane less for the following three months (production from July to September 1944 only 38 planes!). So the 35 planes Artie states for January 1945 could easily be right if these numbers are correct.
Also according to "Flugzeug Profile Nr. 10" by Dressel and Griehl the He 219 A7/R1 to R4 were equipped with DB603 G.
Is it possible that all these DB 603 G-rumors occur from a typo and these were really DB 603 E's?
Kind regards
Robert

[George Hopp]

I am seen the number of He 219s built in the 3rd Quarter 1944 many times but have never bothered to check them. The C-Amts report gives the following production of new a/c as follows: July-16, August-17, Sept.-25. To me that looks like 58 a/c. Just for your info, the numbers for the next 2 months are: Oct.-18, Nov.-19; and, apparently, from Dec.-23; for a total of 60. And, although the numbers are again increasing, they still have quite a distance to go to get to 35. But, I can even accept the number of 35 more than I can accept that these were ALL A-7s.

Oh yes, the DB 603G was planned for several a/c, especially for the Me 410. And, in many references that you might look at today you will see notes that say the Me 410B was powered by the DB 603G. But, already in a meeting in June 1943 DB made the point that the Me 410 couldn't possibly be powered by the DB 603G before Dec. 44; and as you know, the Me 410 stopped production in Sept. 44.

Since the letter from DB to VDM of 8.8.44 I quoted, was by an engine maker to the firm that is making propellers for its engines, I would assume that it would ensure that the list was accurate and complete.

Yes, it is possible that the DB 603E was meant to power the A-7. I haven't been looking for original documentation on the He 219, so really can't comment on that aspect of it. If that is so, would there be high enough production of the engine to enable the powering in one month of 35 Heinkels? I really do doubt it because it took several months for the DB 603A production to become great enough to enable the Me 410 to reach its planned production of 50 units per month. I would expect the same for the DB 603E, or any other DB engine, and so would expect to see a slow build-up in the numbers of a particular series produced.

So, who knows, I may yet have to apologize to Artie, and put on my sack-cloth and ashes; but, as of right now, it doesn't seem probable. The start to a partial solution might be to know what the production mix of He 219s was for Dec 44.

Thanks for your comments, Robert. It's the questions of people like you who keep us so-called experts, honest. For what it's worth, I responded to the original question only because I have spent many years researching the DB 603A and G engines, and not because I think of myself as very knowledgeable on the He 219.
George

[ArtieBob]

Well george,

The copy of the C-Amt Monatsmeldung for January 1945 came from GB archives, appears to be quite authentic and the data presented cross-checks very well for other a/c which I am interested in.
Frankly, I know very little about He 219s and was trying to share to data from primary source material that has not been distributed very widely. I will not waste my time and effort sharing any more of it on this forum. Just finished scanning 150 reels of microfilm, which were not indexed and thus not used very much. I came across a fair amount of DB material that apparently has not been seen before. You won't see anyof it here.

best regards,

Artie Bob

[George Hopp]

Oh Artie, don't act like such a snot. As I said in my first note on your C-Amts entry for January, in light of both the military situation and the previous construction rate, the numbers and the type seem absurd. Does the December report give any run in to the January numbers in terms of type produced, or by a new factory coming on line?

Jeez, I'm forever getting raked over the coals over my comments. But, I don't wimp out, pick up my goodies, and run home to cry. It may tee me off for a short while, but that's one of the perils of opening my mouth on a particular subject.

So what are the GB Archives? I think anyone into DB engines has all manner of material not generally available, but it's always nice to find more, so more power to you.

All the best,
George

[vzlion]

It would be a real shame to lose the information and knowledge put forth by Artie Bob on this forum. I for one would really hate to see that happen.

Walt