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Old 8th March 2017, 08:39
Daniele Gatti's Avatar
Daniele Gatti Daniele Gatti is offline
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J/88 dogfights

Dear Gentlemen,

I would need to contact a real expert of Legion Condor.
This is because I want to check some Aviazione Legionaria's dogfights in which there might have been Jagdgruppe 88.

The combats are:

23.07.1938
21.09.1938
27.09.1938
31.10.1938
01.11.1938
09.11.1938
30.12.1938

I don't know if what I ask to you is possible, but I try it...

Is it possible, for each date written above, to know claims, casualty, location and time (both very important for my research!)?
Only knowing exactly time and location of the combat I will be able to find a participation of Bf 109's in Aviazione Legionaria's dogfights.

P.s.: for the claims there is the usual list, but for the time and location there are some doubts...

I thank you in advance, Daniele.
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Old 9th March 2017, 15:09
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GMichalski GMichalski is offline
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Re: J/88 dogfights

Hi,

23.07.1938

for this date i dont have claims of Italians but my info could be in error...
but for the 22.... maybe the same combat....

22.7.38 23?.7.38 5a/21 Sergey Ivanovich Gritsevets CR.32 Nationalist Italian shared over Viver Capt Franco Lucchini POW (18, 22? or 23?) and Subtenete Dino Oliosi KIA (23?), also lost Giovanni Spilzi in Villar road, he-45 of Antonio Olivera wounded return damaged with 2 crew wounded, 4 Ro.37 damaged but return
22.7.38 23?.7.38 5a/21? CR.32 Nationalist Italian over Viver Capt Franco Lucchini POW (18, 22? or 23?) and Subtenete Dino Oliosi KIA (23?), also lost Giovanni Spilzi in Villar road, he-45 of Antonio Olivera wounded return damaged with 2 crew wounded, 4 Ro.37 damaged but return
22.7.38 5a/21? CR.32 Nationalist Italian over Viver Capt Franco Lucchini POW (18, 22? or 23?) and Subtenete Dino Oliosi KIA (23?), also lost Giovanni Spilzi in Villar road, he-45 of Antonio Olivera wounded return damaged with 2 crew wounded, 4 Ro.37 damaged but return
22.7.38 5a/21? He-45 Nationalist Spanish over Viver Antonio Olivera, he-45 he-45 return to base with 2 crew wounded
22.7.38 ¿? Ro.37 Nationalist Italian over Viver Los ro-37 damaged but aparently return to base
22.7.38 ¿? Ro.37 Nationalist Italian over Viver Los ro-37 damaged but aparently return to base
22.7.38 ¿? Ro.37 Nationalist Italian over Viver Los ro-37 damaged but aparently return to base
22.7.38 ¿? Ro.37 Nationalist Italian over Viver Los ro-37 damaged but aparently return to base
22.7.38 as de Bastos (Ace of Clubs) (Ace of Clubs) I-15 ("Curtiss") Republican Spanish over Viver no losses??
22.7.38 as de Bastos (Ace of Clubs) (Ace of Clubs) I-15 ("Curtiss") Republican Spanish over Viver no losses??
22.7.38 as de Bastos (Ace of Clubs) (Ace of Clubs) I-16 "Rata" Republican Spanish over Viver no losses??

https://www.google.es/maps/place/Viv...9!4d-0.5979205

Viver is 53 Km NW of Valencia
i have the german claims of the 23 over or near Valencia...

info from:
Revista Aeroplano Nº10 page 62
http://airaces.narod.ru/mongol/gricev.htm
http://www.aulamilitar.com/altpalan.hts
http://mrvalv.blogspot.com/ M.R.Valverde
Hakans Web

give me some time to check the other dates
hope it helps

regards
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"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
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Old 9th March 2017, 15:56
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Re: J/88 dogfights

Hi,

thank you for the reply!

July 23, 1938 there were no Italian losses.

Lucchini and Oliosi were shot down on July 22 and Spilzi defected on July 21.

About the Germain claims: ok for Viver near Valencia... but the time?

July 23 there was, in the morning, a short dogfight between Bf 109 (J/88), CR.32 (XXIII Gruppo and "Frecce") versus I-16 and Tupolev SB near Teresa and El Toro...

Is the same battle where the Germans made the claims?
Or the J/88 took off at other times during the day?

Thank you again, Daniele.
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Old 9th March 2017, 18:32
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Re: J/88 dogfights

Hi,

this is the real problem in different sources i find different info, its very confused:

El 23, sobre Viver, son derribados los “Fiat” de Lucchini y Dino Oliosi durante el combate que se sostuvo con los “Moscas” que daban escolta a los “Katiuskas” que bombardeaban la zona de Caudiel y Benafer. A las 13,15 h. los “Moscas” y “Chatos” combaten con los “Messers” al intentar realizar una misión de ametrallamiento en la zona de Cerro Cruz y San Roque. Dos “Moscas” toman tierra en campos distintos de su base por estar los pilotos heridos. Los gubernamentales citan un “Messers” que cae en la estación de Segorbe del que no hay noticias. Al aterrizar en La Cenia, Boer rompe su “Messers” averiado en el combate. También este día son alcanzados en el Vértice Salada dos aviones de asalto, un He-51 y un He-45 que pudo llegar al aeródromo de Toro (Ugarte y Wakonig), que ya estaba en manos de los nacionales.

On 23rd, the "Fiat" of Lucchini and Dino Oliosi were shot down during the combat that was carried out with the "Moscas" that gave escort to the "Katiuskas" that bombarded the zone of Caudiel and Benafer. At 13.15 h. The "Mosacas" and "Chatos" fight with the "Messers" when trying to carry out a machine gun mission in the area of ​​Cerro Cruz and San Roque. Two "Moscas" take ground in fields other than their base because the pilots are wounded. The government cites a "Messers" that falls in the Segorbe station of which there is no news. Upon landing in La Cenia, Boer breaks his "Messers" damaged in combat. Also on this day, two assault planes, a He-51 and a He-45, were able to reach the Toro airfield (Ugarte and Wakonig), which was already in the hands of the nationals.

moreover the time would be important to know how many combats were in reality....

http://www.aulamilitar.com/altpalan.hts
http://penyaramiro.blogspot.com.es/2...la-guerra.html

you said: Spilzi defected on July 21
i dont have the combats this da, can you add some info? AA? combat?


regards
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Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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Old 9th March 2017, 22:23
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Re: J/88 dogfights

On July 21, the artillery of the CTV prepared, in massive way, the field to their infantry and mechanized units to marching along the right bank of the Río Palancia, between Jérica and Viver; Aviazione Legionaria - also - did not give truce by releasing tons of bombs along the entire front. At 6:35 the "Squadriglia Autonoma Caccia e Mitragliamento" (SACM) took off from Teruel with eight CR.32, including that of sergente Giovanni Spilzi, to escort Ro.37bis of the I Brigada Aérea Hispana in action on the front of El Toro. Once in sight of the objective Fiat sighted a dozen I-16 in flight who promptly attacked. After the short dogfight (no claims) the CR.32s began returning to the base, but at 8:05 the Spilzi's plane (NC 623) gradually began to break away from the formation giving the impression of having engine problems. In fact the young, introverted and religious Italian pilot, perhaps disturbed by the combat with the enemy, and probably with CR.32 slightly damaged, reversed course heading towards the Republican base in Valencia where he landed shortly after. Spilzi immediately proved cooperative with authorities of Aviación Republicana putting at their disposal and assuming afterwards the cover name of "Julian Arrigo Echea". In the area there were also 26 CR.32 of XXIII Gruppo of maggiore Armando François but did not participate in the short fight (or saw it) that involved the SACM, as they were escorting some S.81 in action on Viver.

Regards, Daniele.
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Old 9th March 2017, 22:37
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Re: J/88 dogfights

Spilzi, joined in the Aviación Republicana, remained in Spain until February 1939 although never piloted a Republican plane. After he found refuge in France, where he waited in the camp of Argelès-sur-Mer and Gurs. Spilzi, before, and during the first period of the Second World War, was sent by the French to work for the fortifications on the eastern border. Captured by the Germans he was returned to the Italian police; In January 1942, the war tribunal of the CTV sentenced him to ten years in prison for desertion to be served in Gaeta.
Spilzi remained in jail for over two years, then (after September 8, 1943), ended up back in the hands of the Germans. First deported to Dachau, December 13, 1944 Spilzi (number 111063) was transferred to Buchenwald and, two days later, the subfield of Ohrdruf where he died at 14.30 on 21 January 1945 when the liberation by the Allies was near.
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Old 12th March 2017, 14:23
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Re: J/88 dogfights

Hi,

many thanks for your info,

i think i cant help you a lot... sorry

regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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