14 Squadron "D" Flight's Vickers Vincent > later transferred to 45 Squadron (Nov.35)

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Good morning/night to all members.

Am looking for help regarding the serial numbers (K-series) of the Vickers Vincent of "D" Flight of 14 Squadron that were transferred to 45 Squadron in November 1935. Any help in identifying those machines most welcomed.

Adriano Baumgartner
baumgartner_asv@yahoo.com.br

[Zoran Petek]

Hello Adriano,
I got the impression (from several books) that 'D' Flt was already under 45 Sqn when received Vincents in 1936.
Known Vincents of No. 45 Sqn serials:
K4663, K4664, K4665, K4666, K4667, K4668, K4669, K4671, K4672, K4673, K4673, K4675, K4676, K4677, K4678, K4679, K4680, K4681, K4682, K4683, K4684, K4685, K4686.
Regards

[Leendert]

Adriano,


My peer RAF historians are welcome to comment or correct, but it appears that the Vincents of "D Flight" in No. 14 Squadron were a detachment from No. 6 Squadron to boost the air presence in Palestine.


ORB of No. 14 Squadron reports that the Vincents were active until early Jan. 1936 before being transferred to No. 45 Squadron.


Sorry, no K-numbers mentioned.


Regards,


Leendert

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Dear Zoran and Leendert,

I guess you solved my puzzle...thank you so much...Will try to find onto 45 Squadron ORB from the period.

Really appreciated...

Adriano

[Col Bruggy]

Hello,

Here is what the history books have to say:

As part of the RAF's expansion scheme, and in the shadow of the Abyssinian Crisis, a fourth Flight, "D" Flight under Flt Lt J G Franks was added to the Squadron (No.14), in September (1935). The Flight's Gordon aircraft were supplied by 6 Squadron (which itself was re-equipping with the Hawker Hardy) and the Flight started an intensive work-up to prepare themselves for operations. Over the next three months they practised dive-bombing, air firing, night flying, photography, formation flying, searching and reconnaissance skills.

"D" Flight completed their work-up on 8 January (1936). Sadly rather than remaining with 14 Squadron, they were immediately equipped with Vincents and sent to join 45 Squadron as part of the response to developments in Abyssinia.

See:
Winged Crusaders The Exploits of 14 Squadron RFC & RAF 1915-1945.
Napier,Michael.
Barnsley:Pen & Sword Aviation,2012.
pp.139-40'

and ...

In the meantime, while No 6 Sqn had been exchanging its old Gordons for Harts at Ismailia, it had formed a D Flight mounted on Demons. At Amman No 14 Sqn, also with Gordons, also formed a D Flight but was not itself re-equipped. In January 1936 everyone changed partners. No 45 Sqn passed its Hart-equipped D Flight to the by now Hart-flying No 6 Sqn on the 6th. This displaced their Demon-equipped D Flight which was transferred on the same day to the Demon-flying No 29 Sqn. No.14 Sqn's Gordon-equipped D Flight (Flt Lt J G Franks, Fg Off D P McKeown,and Plt Offs W I Collett and F J O Lasbrey) joined the Vincent-equipped No 45 Sqn on the 10th.

It all seems to have been very complicated and it is difficult now to understand why the establishment of each squadron was not simply increased by one permanent flight. There must have been a sound rationale behind the adoption of such a convoluted procedure at the time but it is no longer clear why it was considered necessary to indulge in this curious game of 'musical flights'.

See:
Flying Camels The History of No 45 Sqn RAF.
Jefford,C J, W/C MBE, BA, RAF Retd,
High Wycombe:Author,1995.
pp.113-4

In Annex L, Jefford has a listing of all known Gordons, Harts and Vincents that served on 45 Sqn.

Col.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Col

From where I sit, it seems the authorities tried to ensure that the various squadrons involved used the same type of aircraft.

That assumption of course leads to the question why the same powers previously thought it was a good idea to let the same squadrons re-equip with different types of aircraft in the first place? Perhaps it looked good on paper?

Cheers
Stig

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Colonel Bruggy,

Your answers on this Forum are all (and always) well supportted and documented, with quotations from books, etc. THANK YOU.

I do humbly appreciated this additional information which is most welcomed and do add a lot for my own research. A famous Brazilian pilot flew both with 45 and 14 Squadron between 1935 and 1937 (or 38..do not remember by heart now).

I was in doubt about one serial number which I already identified, now thanks to the answers here, hence my questions about the K-series of the Vickers Vincents from 45 Squadron. The source and book about this Squadron is new for me and I will try to obtain a copy of it, thanks to your tips.

STIG: I guess I understood the "general idea"...Maybe the "Powers that Be" decided that since there were few operational Squadrons on the Area in question (Middle East), it was better to have several Flights equipped for different purposes with different machines, so each Squadron could do a greater variety of missions due to having several equipments available. For instance 14 Squadron was later equipped with the Wellesley which had a tremendous range, greater than the previous biplanes. Do not know....for me, the idea points that way.

In terms of Logistics and supplies, it seems rather silly to have such different machines under a same umbrella (Squadron), rather than to specialize with one single equipment...

Personally I do agree with Col. Bruggy about the "game of music - chairs" about swifting one Flight to one Squadron than to another, etc...It seems NO GOOD for the morale of the troop too...and maybe the mechanics were not fully trained to deal with those "incorporations" of new machines!?!?!

Thank you both, for helping me identifying the machine I was looking for!..and for adding new information about both 14 and 45 Squadrons.

Adriano S. Baumgartner

[Col Bruggy]

Adriano,

The "Famous Brazilian pilot" you mention in Post #7 (para two), would be, 34123 W/C Cosme Lockwood GOMM DSO, DFC, of Sao Paulo, Brazil. He was KIA on 15/16 August, 1943, whilst OC No.467 Sqn RAAF (BCL4/269).

Col.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Col. Bruggy,

Sorry for the long delay in answering you back. I travelled, etc...pretty busy days...

INDEED, the famous Brazilian Aviator mentioned is Cosme Lockwood Gomm, whose biography we are working on...

Adriano