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  #1  
Old 3rd November 2018, 20:24
Maciej Góralczyk Maciej Góralczyk is offline
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Hurricane IId HV663 - 6 Sqn. RAF or 7 Sqn. SAAF?

Gentlemen,

Various sources condratict each other in regard to this aircraft's unit affiliation in spring 1943, when it was captured on a quite well-known colour photo, being coded "U". It certainly came from 71 OTU, but to which squadron?

Thank you for information.
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  #2  
Old 4th November 2018, 08:22
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is offline
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Re: Hurricane IId HV663 - 6 Sqn. RAF or 7 Sqn. SAAF?

Hello,

https://asisbiz.com/il2/Hurricane/RA...l-1943-02.html

You will find the same shot (in mono), and a description of the operation in; A History of the Mediterranean Air War 1940-1945 - Vol.3/Shores et al, pp.448-53.

HV663 never served with the SAAF.

Col.
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  #3  
Old 4th November 2018, 12:55
rfl51 rfl51 is offline
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Re: Hurricane IId HV663 - 6 Sqn. RAF or 7 Sqn. SAAF?

Maybe this can help:

Rudolph
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  #4  
Old 5th November 2018, 02:15
Maciej Góralczyk Maciej Góralczyk is offline
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Re: Hurricane IId HV663 - 6 Sqn. RAF or 7 Sqn. SAAF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Col Bruggy View Post
You will find the same shot (in mono), and a description of the operation in; A History of the Mediterranean Air War 1940-1945 - Vol.3/Shores et al, pp.448-53.
HV663 never served with the SAAF.
Indeed, meanwhile I found the photo and loss data for HW313 (a/c visible in the background) in Shores et al, it is now clear that both a/c flew with 6 Sqn. at the time of taking the photo. Wonder where the idea on 7 Sqn., promoted by some authors, came from...
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Old 5th November 2018, 10:37
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Hurricane IId HV663 - 6 Sqn. RAF or 7 Sqn. SAAF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maciej Góralczyk View Post
Gentlemen,

Various sources condratict each other in regard to this aircraft's unit affiliation in spring 1943, when it was captured on a quite well-known colour photo, being coded "U". It certainly came from 71 OTU, but to which squadron?

Thank you for information.
Maciej
According to Jim Halley it was the other way around. HV663 initially was with 6Sq and later passed to 71OTU.
May I also suggest that any notion of service with 7Sq most likely is some kind of corruption of its later service with 71OTU.
Cheers
Stig
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  #6  
Old 5th November 2018, 15:53
Graham Boak Graham Boak is offline
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Re: Hurricane IId HV663 - 6 Sqn. RAF or 7 Sqn. SAAF?

if you look at the upper example of the two colour photos, you'll see that the red of the fin flash and the fuselage roundel appears much more orange than the red of the spinner. I think this is sufficient to explain why the aircraft was thought to have been the the SAAF.

I have seen it said that the aircraft were to some extent inter-operated by the two units, and given the high loss rates this is plausible. However it may simply be based on misunderstandings such as the above.
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Old 5th November 2018, 17:35
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: Hurricane IId HV663 - 6 Sqn. RAF or 7 Sqn. SAAF?

Hello,
In both pictures engines are running and there is it seems quite a bit of sand-dust in the air and because of that and the light differences because of same the colour of the red roundel, tail flash and nose cone look to be different shades of red.
I think that is why the fin flash perhaps could be said to perhaps be a shade of orange .
In any case the photos are just great, thanks for posting them.
Alex
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:10
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is offline
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Re: Hurricane IId HV663 - 6 Sqn. RAF or 7 Sqn. SAAF?

Hello,

Re my rather categorical statement that Hurricane HV663 "U", "never served with the SAAF", (Post #2). Michael Schoeman, in Vol.4 of his Springbok Fighter Victory SAAF Fighter Operations 1939-1945, (p.27), has a cropped photo of HV663 "U" and HW313 "S" taking off (similar to the one mentioned in earlier posts), with the following caption:

7 Sqdn nearly returned to the "tank buster" role in early 1943 with Hurricane IId's again. HV663: U had been flown by 7 at Alamein, By Feb 1943 it was with 6 Sqdn RAF in Tunisia and later with 71 O.T.U. at Carthago. This photograph has been used to illustrate all three units. Take your pick.

Better me picking up the pieces than someone else!

Col.
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  #9  
Old 8th November 2018, 12:39
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Hurricane IId HV663 - 6 Sqn. RAF or 7 Sqn. SAAF?

Interesting Col

I guess nothing is impossible but I must say I am still doubtful, even if I now discovered another book saying HV663/U belonged to 7SAAF (Squadrons of the SAAF and its aircraft 1920-2005)

If we focus on the other aircraft visible HW313/S (not mentioned in the Squadron book), its RAF card only seems to state in operational use by 6Sq (RAF). It was lost on 6 April 1943, that is the same day the photo was reportedly taken! 7SAAF was nowhere near Gabes airfield while of course 6Sq was. Unless everything previously said about the photo is pure fiction, I would say the photo shows Hurricanes from 6Sq (RAF) taking off, but from where or when is not possible to say. However neither Gabes nor 6 April 1943 is impossible!

Michael Schoeman is good, no doubt about that, but there is no way of knowing from where his statement comes from. Even the best now and then simply state what is in front of them perhaps even scribbled on the back side of a photo copy.

So unless someone can come up with a 663 being recorded with 7SAAF I will remain doubtful....

Cheers
Stig
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