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  #11  
Old 20th November 2011, 18:13
Bruce Lander's Avatar
Bruce Lander Bruce Lander is offline
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Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940

Hi,
here is the original picture from "Ginger Lacey Fighter Pilot" by Bickers, also appears in Watkins book on 501 "Fear Nothing" clearly this man is nearer 30 than 20. The Flight Seargent stripes and crown are clearly visible. As Wynn gives a detailed account of the other Payne's 1939/40 activities I personally feel sure these are 2 different men.
Cheers,
Bruce Lander
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  #12  
Old 24th November 2011, 00:17
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940

Thanks Bruce

Since you are still one up on me (I don't have your issue of Men of the Battle of Britain by Wynne) I have nothing to compare with. Is it possible to get a scan of the "younger" Payne as well?

Also the distance photo you have of "old" Payne is this
a) The same photo published everywhere, including Listeman's work?
b) 100% he is correctly identified?

If they are two individuals, it IS rather strange that "old Payne" has no service number and manage to disappear completely while "young Payne" is very slowly passing through to become a fighter pilot. If this had been from early 1938 to mid 1939 training period I would have understood, but the political situation went from bad to worse during this time, and at least I thought RAF were getting into gear from mid 1939 or so with their training schedule.

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Stig
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  #13  
Old 24th November 2011, 21:36
Brian Brian is offline
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Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940

Hi guys

Yes, I tend to go along with this conclusion.

It's surprising, though, that Payne was not decorated for his 4/6 victories.

Cheers
Brian
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  #14  
Old 24th November 2011, 21:54
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Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940

Hi Stig & Brian,

here is the photo from the 2nd edition of Wynn's book. Also in 1939/40 the rank of F/Sgt would have been a rank for an older NCO rather than Sgt.
Cheers
Bruce Lander
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  #15  
Old 25th November 2011, 23:46
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940

Thanks Bruce

Have to admit there is not much resemblance between the two individuals....

So if they were not the same, what on earth happened to our "old" Payne from France? Somehow it now begins to look like he never came back and that this for some reason went unrecorded....

I simply have to admit I am not very happy without knowing what happened to Jammy. Obviously Shores is just as puzzled and finds him just as mysterious... (see his latest comments in Aces High Vol 2 from 1999)

Cheers
Stig
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  #16  
Old 26th November 2011, 00:35
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Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940

Hi Stig,

Mason in "Battle Over Britain" lists Jammy Payne as still on 501sqd as of 01 July 1940 !!!
The younger Payne was born in June 1920 in Croyden ! (see Free BMD site)

Cheers

Bruce Lander
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  #17  
Old 26th November 2011, 15:36
Brian Brian is offline
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Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940

Hi guys

I believe the pilot in the group photo has been misidentified! Therefore only the one Alec Payne!

Cheers
Brian
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  #18  
Old 27th November 2011, 16:03
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Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940

Hi Brian, Stig,

I suppose that it really doesn't matter too much if the pic in France of 501 pilots mis-identifies Payne the fact remains that there was a "Jammy" Payne in France with 501 who got several victories but he was NOT Alec D Payne of 610/74. - So who was he? were his initials A.D. even?
Does the 501 ORB give any clues?

The mystery remains !!!

Cheers

Bruce Lander
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  #19  
Old 28th November 2011, 01:44
Smithy Smithy is offline
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Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940

Not of terribly much use, but has anyone gone back over pictures of 501 Sqn personnel at the time this photo was taken with the "older Payne" to see whether it is a misidentification? It might be possible therefore to see that the older Payne was in fact another member of the squadron.

Cheers,

Tim
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  #20  
Old 23rd December 2011, 00:56
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Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940

Hi,
From "Britain at War" March 2011 some more info (see attached) on the younger A.D. Payne.
Cheers
Bruce Lander
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