Destroyed tanks counted as "air victories" in April, 1945 by German fighters in east

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Gentlemen,

was it a totally common practice at the Jagdwaffe in the last weeks of the war to confirm the strafed, burning tanks as air victories? I did not check all of my available materials, but remember only JG 52 claims (for example two by the excellent Lt. Düttmann, one T-34/85 and a Sherman as well)

[marsyao]

Another question was whether it was possible for a Bf-109 destroy a T-34/85 by strafting only without a bombt or rocket ?

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Csaba Becze

Gentlemen,

was it a totally common practice at the Jagdwaffe in the last weeks of the war to confirm the strafed, burning tanks as air victories? I did not check all of my available materials, but remember only JG 52 claims (for example two by the excellent Lt. Düttmann, one T-34/85 and a Sherman as well)

The German word for the destruction of an aircraft or a tank is «Abschuß» (a tank can score an Abschuß on another tank, too) but whether they were considered equivalent achievements, I don't know.

[yogybär]

Düttmann had a MK108 in his Bf, no 37mm

Anyway, if the tank has some additional fuel stored on its back, it is easily possible even with a MG.

For example Rudel claimed a dozen or so tanks in one mission with Ju87D, when broken through T-34 had additional fuel stored on their back.

About other units: I never heard that tanks were counted in the same category as planes. But Schlachtflieger had claimlists for tanks and planes, so why not do the same for Jagdflieger?

[Csaba B. Stenge]

I know few medium AFV claims by Hungarian fighters as well. Yogibär has right, if the AFV's used additional internal fuel tanks in routes (far from the first line), it was easy to burn them.

The fighters 3cm MK 108's armour-piercing shells couldn't penetrate the armour plate of the medium and heavy Soviet tanks generally (because they did not use wolfram-core ammunition) However, everything is possibe rarely (very lucky shot). Sometimes the strafing fighters destroyed Su 76's as well, which had not back and above armour protection.

But in Hungary, these vehicles were counted separate frm the airplanes (by assault and by fighter pilots as well).

[George Hopp]

German fighters used 3cm cannon -- the MK 108 -- that did not carry armour-piercing ammunition. The 20mm MG 151/20 cannon had armour-piercing ammo, but it would have been hard-put to penetrate even the lightest tank armour. So, they were probably limited to brewing up the tanks by hitting external fuel tanks with incediary ammunition.

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Thanks George, I tought external, but wrote internal

Well, I know, that with the MK 108 the fighters used generally a kind of high explosive fragmentation round, called Minengeschoss, but IIRC it was another one kind of shell for that gun as well. So, it was not an AP, but an incendiary one?

[Boomerang]

I'm not sure that the question as to whether a T34/85 could be destroyed by strafing by normal fighter MG/cannon armament, as opposed to tank-busting cannon/bombs/rockets has been answered.

On 5 July 1943, when Rudel claimed 12 tanks, he was flying a tank-busting Ju 87G, armed with 37mm cannon firing tungsten cored rounds (Peter Smith, Junkers Ju 87 Stuka, page 184).

I suggest that claims by pilots represent weak evidence as to whether tanks could be destroyed by strafing alone. It's one thing to mention the million to one 'lucky shot', but tanks would have been constantly exposed to machine gun fire on the battlefield and there seem to be few accounts of ground troops stopping T34s or Shermans with MG34s or MG 42s. Are there credible accounts of tanks being knocked out by 20mm flak weapons?

I can see the possibility of external fuel tanks being ignited by strafing, but IIRC, the external tanks on, for example, the T34 were jettisonable so that they could be dumped in 'hot' situations - although this recollection is hazy and no doubt can be updated by experts on Soviet AFVs.

In summary, I suggest the basic question as to whether a T34/85 could be destroyed by strafing alone has not been resolved.

Cheers

Boomerang

[Ruy Horta]

In Robert Kershaw's excellent War Without Garlands - Operation Barbarossa 1941/42 I've read an account of 20mm Flak knocking out several T-34s in a desperate defensive battle.

Not actually destroying the tanks but supposedly by completely demoralizing the tank crews because of the terrifying and unendurable sound inside the tanks.

Of course damaging tracks should be reasonable with 20mm AP ammunition.

[Boomerang]

It does seem quite reasonable that 20 mm fire could disable, as opposed to knock out a tank via a fortuitous hit to, for example, a track link.

IMHO another possibility to consider in this discussion is that a fighter could strafe and destroy a half-track, or similar weakly armoured tracked AFV, but claim a tank destroyed. Unfortunately this is moving towards speculation that cannot be tested with hard information, so it can't really go much further.

Regards

Boomerang