German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

[HGabor]

Folks,

Here is Oblt. Norbert Schmitt’s list for 1944 over Hungary (3./SG 10, Fw 190F):

Date:............Reported AC:…..Real victim:

19.11.1944.......Yak-9............Found no such loss, probably just damaged. (Only known Yak was in an airfield accident, not a combat loss.)
17.12.1944.......Yak-9............Found no such loss, probably just damaged. (Perhaps a 17 VA, 288 IAD Yak-9D)
25.12.1944.......R-5...............Po-2, S/N: 14821, engine: 00532, 17 VA, 282 OAPS, ml.l-t Afanasiev's crew of 2 (OK) during landing.
08.12.1944.......Boston III.......A-20B-DL, S/N: 41-3648, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 260 BAP, m-r Makkeev's crew (4 returned, including 1 WIA)

Gabor

[HGabor]

Folks,

Here is Ltn. Otto Dommeratzkt’s incomplete(!) list for 1944 (6./SG 2, Fw 190F). Since he claimed his victories still early, my records are incomplete. I had the following planes in my loss-lists which might match his claims, but chances are other units had losses too which I was not aware of. Note, that 873 ShAP later became 188 GvShAP of 5 VA, 12 GvShAD. 165 GvShAP also lost 4 IL-2s (Mamaev, Krilov, Karashev, and Sharov at Tordatúr/Tureni area) this day while still with the 5 VA (before transfer to 17 VA):

Date:............Reported AC:…..Real victim:

19.09.1944.......Boston III......Probably Douglas A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54280, 5 VA, 218 BAD, 48 BAP, l-t Finogenov (KIA) - Or perhaps Oblt. Behnkau's claim (III/JG 51)???? Note, only ONE 5 VA Boston loss this day, so one of them was an overclaim!!!
22.09.1944.......IL-2..............probably IL-2m3 of 5 VA, 231 ShAD, 873 ShAP
22.09.1944.......IL-2..............probably IL-2m3 of 5 VA, 231 ShAD, 873 ShAP
22.09.1944.......IL-2..............probably IL-2m3 of 5 VA, 231 ShAD, 873 ShAP

(The 3 873 ShAP, 2nd squadron IL-2 losses: S/N: No.1873376/engine: 252359-ml.l-t Kazmin, No.8485/engine: 252085-ml.l-t Klochko, or No.9081/engine: 253460-Sherbak, repaired on airfield. Note, that IL-2 No.8485 was hit by flak earlier on May 12, 1944 and was repaired on their airfield. See below.)

Gabor

[HGabor]

Folks,

Here is Uffz. Werner Röde's incomplete, soviet list for 1944 (5./JG 52, Bf 109G):

Date:............Reported AC:…..Real victim:

20.09.1944.......Boston III......Douglas A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54200, engines: 42-82843 and 42-82868, 5 VA, 218 BAD, 48 BAP, st.l-t Nikolaev (4KIA) in Kisselyk/Şeica Mică area.
22.09.1944.......Il-2 m.H........Perhaps IL-2m3 of 5 VA, 165 GvShAP, or 873 ShAP, or...? (See prev. comments.)

Gabor

[HGabor]

Folks,

...and a "SUPER-OVERCLAIM", made by JG 51 Bf 109G pilots on soviet Boston bombers on September 22, 1944 - according to Tony Wood's claim-list:

Hptm. Joachim Brendel............27 491: at 2.000 m
Oblt. ?.................................27 455: at 600 m. 10.28
Ofw. Friedrich Simon..............27 449: at 400 m. 10.29
Ltn. Anton Hafner..................27 422: at 1.000 m. 10.29
Uffz. Mölders........................27 487: at 1.200 m. 10.30
Ofw. Josef Gäbl.....................27 485: at 1.200 m. 10.31

BUT: the 5 VA has lost only a single Boston this day!

Douglas A-20G-45-DO Boston, S/N: 43-21689, 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP, 1st squadron (probably: Red '5', since Mr. Malov told me this 2 years ago in 2012, but because he crashed at least 2 Bostons, it is not clear if all of his planes were actually red '5'. His other A-20G was red '5' at least in Hungary.), l-t Ivan Aleksandrovich Malov's crew (4 returned OK)

AC type is interesting. It says: А-20C-45до, not the typical 'А-20Ж' for the A-20G model. Serial is obvious, but some A-20G planes got A-20B or A-20C nose for better view as a field modification for recce. missions. Usually the 1st (red) Sq. of the group performed such missions, so maybe this A-20G had a modified, A-20C "greenhouse" nose???????

...and this plane still could crash-land on their airfield due to combat damages! Bostons were not so easy to shoot down. They frequently escaped even with 'horror' damages... So I have no idea who shot 43-21689 down. Pick your own choice :-))))))))

Gabor

[Leo Etgen]

Hello HGabor

I wish to thank you for your excellent contributions towards understanding the relationship between German claims and Russian losses over Hungary in 1944. It has been most interesting and valuable information to all of us attempting to gain a clear understanding for the truth of the air war in that area at that time. I must say that I have read that the 22 September 1944 action involving III./JG 51 occurred off the Courland coast and the Russian unit engaged was 1 GMTAP, VVS-KBF which lost three aircraft shot down and possibly an unknown number damaged. Nokose wrote about this air battle and its results on post #2 at http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=7737. Any comments or corrections to my misunderstanding are welcome.

Horrido!

Leo

[HGabor]

Leo,

Thank you so much for pointing out this huge geographical difference! This was my SUPER-MISTAKE! I am sorry guys, but I did not realize that another part of JG 51 was fighting in the area, not the pilots' unit, mentioned above. Maybe their claims were correct and the soviets really lost those planes. Since I have no records for the Northern area, I cannot verify that. Sorry again,

Gabor

PS: Does anybody know then who damaged (and destroyed) 43-21689 of the 5th VA in the South?

[robert]

Hi,

the pilots of III./JG51 downed 3 A-20 bombers and 1 of the escorting Yak-9 aircraft.

Regards

Robert

[Nokose]

From what I picked up in a Russian source it was 3 A-20 from 3 GMTAP KBF and 3 A-20 from 51 MTAP KBF but no idea on the fighter escort unit.

[HGabor]

Yes, looks like the 51 MTAP KBF has lost 3 A-20 Bostons to III/JG 51 fighters on September 22, 1944 indeed. (Zhilenkov's, Baranov's, Permyakov's crews - 9 KIA) Their total loss that day was 5 Bostons!

http://www.bellabs.ru/51/Morozov/Losses.html

Gabor

[robert]

Originally Posted by Nokose

From what I picked up in a Russian source it was 3 A-20 from 3 GMTAP KBF and 3 A-20 from 51 MTAP KBF but no idea on the fighter escort unit.

Nokose,

these A-20 were from 1 GMTAP and Jak-9 was from 21 IAP.

Regards

Robert