II.(Schlacht)Lehrgeschwader 2

[Tim O.]

Originally Posted by Tim O.

Hi Steven

de Zeng and Stankey say this unit was not formed until 13th January 1942 (in Lippstadt) with the Hs123 and Hs129.

Best wishes
Tim O.

Apologies Larry. My error.

I should have known better - especially as I also have documents for a man from II.(Schlacht)/LG2. Very embarrassing!

My man was with 4. Staffel and shot down over England in a Bf109 on 29th October 1940 while attacking North Weald airfield. He was taken prisoner.

Again apologies for my addled brain.

Best wishes
Tim O.

[ouidjat]

Gentlemen,

Sorry guys but some times to times I can be very stupid!
Which unit are you talking about?
One fellow member is asking for something, others are trying to answer but 89% of TOCH quiet members are reading too, saying nothing.
So:
II.(S)/LG 2 or II./Sch.G 2 ????
Which is not - I think ; but I can be wrong too - exactly the same situation: in time, duty, and machines ...

Regards, Franck.

[Larry deZeng]

No problemo, Tim O. It is real easy to get some of these units mixed up. I know because it happens to me more than I care to admit!

Larry

[Andreas Brekken]

Hello, again.

Franck - sorry to cause confusion with my typo re unit designation in an earlier post!

Larry - I disagree with your notion that 10./LG 2 did not belong to the II.(S)/LG 2 with regards to organisation. I know you have written books on the ground attack units - but I believe you missed something here:

Quote from the Vortrag über die Einsatzbereitschaft der fligende Verbände Stand: 1.3.1941:

2. Veränderungen.

Bei der II./(Schl.) L.G. 2 ist die Aufstellung einer 4. Staffel mit einem Soll von 12 Hs 123 befohlen.

Übernahme der Flugzeuge ist noch nicht erfolgt.

As the following Staffeln already existed:

1., 2. and 3. Staffel under I.(Jagd)/LG 2
4., 5. and 6. Staffel under II.(Schl.)/LG 2
and
7., 8., and 9. Staffel under III.(Aufkl.)/LG 2

the new Staffel was given the Staffel designation 10.

This was a Staffel which was totally a part of II.(S)/LG 2 with regards to command structure, and reported as integral part of this unit.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Larry deZeng]

Hi Andreas,

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. A Vortrag (enunciation, i.e., announcement or proclamation) appended to an Einsatzbereitschaft der fligende Verbände report does not constitute an official order. That would have been issued by the Organisationsabteilung of the Genst. d.Lw. In fact, the Vortrag clearly says that such action had been "ordered" on or before 01.03.1941. But the devil is in the details and those would be found in the official Organisationsabteilung order that would direct in a number of pages how, why, where and when it would be carried out, list the KStNs involved and cover the assignment of a Feldpost number (if any).

I would find it strange if a new Staffel with an aircraft that was different from that flown by the rest of II. Gruppe and with an independent Staffel number was intended to be an integrated organic component of the Gruppe.

Until more documentary proof, such as the actual Organisationsabteilung order appears, I will continue to believe 10. Staffel was attached to II. Gruppe but was not an organic component of it. The German military was very methodical about things like this and this case would have been a major departure from the norm.

This is why Stankey and I treated 10.(Schlacht)/LG 2 separately in our book: lack of concrete proof that for some strange reason it was integrated into the Gruppe as a component of it.

Best,

Larry

[Andreas Brekken]

Well, mr deZeng.

It references the order...

Official Luftwaffe documentation on General Staff level thus exist and show that this Staffel was, for the entirety of its life under this designation, part of the II./(Schl.) L.G.2. It existed in the Bestandsmeldungen as an integral part of the unit and is dismissed as circumstantial? To me this just indicates that you have never studied or understood these primary sources.

And it is indeed very strange that almost every Vortrag, which is the introduction to the Bestandsmeldungen were close to every organizational change was reported, coincide with the official orders available in archives?

More quotes:

Stand der Einsatzbereitschaft am: 8.3.1941

Die bei der II.(Sch.)L.G.2 befohlene Aufstellung der 10.Staffel mit 12 Hs 123 ist in der Verechnung nicht berücksichtigt, da die Übernahme der Flugzeuge noch nicht erfolgt ist.

Stand der Einsatzbereitschaft am 22.3.1941

Sollerhöhung durch erstmalige Aufnahme der bei der II./(Sch.) L.G.2 aufgestellten Staffel mit 12 Hs 123

This latter quote which reference a Sollerhöhung - an increase of the number of aircraft officially appointed to a unit - which would not have been recorded if this was not a part of the unit. For example - units reported as Auf dem Kommandowege aufgestellt - would not result in a Sollerhöhung unless the final order for Etatisierung was given - of this there are several examples.

Have you studied Vfg.Gen.Qu.2.Abt. Nr.6025/42 g.Kdos.(IIA) of January 4th 1942 on the reorganization of the Kampf-, Stuka-, Schlacht- and Zerstörer units of the Luftwaffe?

But I won't bother with relaying further information which could enhance the quality of your work - it is obvious from your previous comment that you do not need assistance.

Regards,
Andreas B

[ouidjat]

Thank you Andreas.

@Steven1
On which document did you get this name (and unit), please?

Regards, Franck.

[Larry deZeng]

Andreas,

Your reply 0f 23.39 12 April is full of sneering, personal attack slurs so I will refrain from replying. That's what we are supposed to do on these forums to avoid flame wars or whatever they are called.

Regards,

Larry

[John Beaman]

Alright guys, let's just chill here.

There are times when we just need to agree to disagree and not get personal.

Given the paucity of Luftwaffe records, I am amazed we have as much as we do. Let's appreciate people's efforts.

Again, a basic rule of this forum: if you do not like the replies/postings, leave the thread alone.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all and Larry especially.

Never ment to start a flame war - but I was probably a bit fired up by Larry's patronizing answer of April 12th 18:18 where I feel he more or less try in a very condescending fashion (as I read it) to get me (as you would talk to a child) to understand the workings of the Luftwaffe high command.

I have studied these issues for close to 20 years, and I feel I have a certain overview. I can definitely be wrong, Larry, and might have read something else into the answer than you really meant. If that is the case I am man enough to apologize.

I can not see that my latest answer is what you call full personal attacks?

The only thing I wanted to get through was to get a feedback with regards to you and mr Stankey having studied these additional sources which I found in a totally unrelated Reichsmarine folder years ago. I thought it would be interesting - if you still have an interest of furthering the understanding of these units.

There is one line in there were I state that as I understand it you are not interested in additional information being brought forward unless it is followed by the complete official Luftwaffe paper trail - and I hope you understand that your earlier post mentioned above does not really spur the enthusiasm with regards to using time and effort to bring knowledge to the community.

In my opinion it seems we are even... and can go on without any more hurt feelings!

And Larry - I have attached one of the strength reports of the II./(Schl.) LG 2. We can still disagree - but this is how the Luftwaffe General Staff saw the unit. Hopefully someone will come up with the original order with the full details you want in the future.

Regards,
Andreas B