Loss of Guenther Schell

[Nokose]

Lt Guenther Schell, I/JG54 was reported lost on 16Jul43 after ramming a Russian fighter. Could the actual date have been the 14Jul43 by a delay or mix up in the paperwork?

[Nokose]

In Vitaliy Gorbac's book on the Kursk air battle (in Russian). He has that 2nd Lt P.E. Korpolev of the 65 GIAP rammed a Fw 190 in his Yak-1 in a dogfight. He stated that this happened on the 14Jul43. It lists that Schell was listed in German records as having rammed a Russian plane in the same area and time but on the 16th.

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Nokose

I can not really help you too much but Wood's lists have Scheel claiming three victories on 16 July 1943. I have a feeling that it is very possible for Korpolev to have been the pilot that was involved in the collision but that perhaps the Russian date is in error. Loss list information I have seen states that Scheel crashed at 8:06, some 12 kilometers northeast of Bolkhov and if Korpolev is listed as having collided with a German fighter at around the same time and place it probably is beyond coincidence. I have also seen a certain Lt Kozlovsky of 28 GIAP credited with having downed Scheel but have doubts about the accuracy of this information as the source, Dymich, is not always too reliable. On a totally unrelated track, have you ever heard of Leutnant Ernst Weismann (69 victories, RK, missing in action 13 August 1942) of 12./JG 51 being shot down by Kapt Petr Ovcharov (6 +12 shared victories) of 157 IAP?

Horrido!

Leo

[Nokose]

Hi Leo,
I looked through that chapter but didn't see anything on Weismann's loss. Second time that I've ran into a Russian fighter colliding with a German fighter that had different dates that the Russian authors believed they matched. Gorbac's book has material that Bergstrom's doesn't have but the same in reverse.

[Leo Etgen]

Hello Nokose

Many thanks for looking up about Weismann. I looked through Pawel Burchard's excellent website and found no other losses for JG 51 or JG 54 that were due to a collision aside of Scheel's on either 14 July or 16 July 1943.

Stab and Stabsstaffel/JG 51
14/7/1943 Fw 190A-5 W.Nr. 5901 Stab J.G. 51
Enemy fire. Pl.Qu. 63136 25% F
14/7/1943 Fw 190A-5 W.Nr. 1189 Stabsstaffel J.G. 51
Sauber, Uffz. Robert -- gefallen
Luftkampf, Pl.Qu. 54575, south of Uljanowo 100% F

I./JG 51
14/7/1943 Fw 190A-4 5545 3./J.G. 51
Engine trouble. Pl.Qu. 54623 20% F
16/7/1943 Fw 190A-4 W.Nr. 7120 3./J.G. 51
Enemy fire. Pl.Qu. 6355 100% F

III./JG 51
14/7/1943 Fw 190A-5 W.Nr. 5950 8./J.G. 51
Enemy fire. Orel-Slowitzki 25% F
14/7/1943 Fw 190A-5 W.Nr. 7197 8./J.G. 51
Bruchlandung. Orel-Slowitzki 20% F
16/7/1943 Fw 190A-4 W.Nr. 2513 8./J.G. 51
Notlandung due to fuel shortage. Pl.Qu. 64715 25% F

I./JG 54
16/7/1943 Fw 190A-5 W.Nr. 710002 (gelbe 8) 3./J.G. 54
Scheel, Ltn. Günther (RK, *23/11/21) -- vermisst
MIA after being rammed by an enemy aircraft during Luftkampf.
Pl.Qu. 6438 100% F (Bob says 12km nö. Bolchow, Pl. Qu. 64356(6438?) s. Orel)

II./JG 54
14/7/1943 Fw 190A-4 W.Nr. 145783 II./J.G. 54
Reifenschaden, Fl.Pl. Jablowo 50%
14/7/1943 Fw 190A-5 W.Nr.155898 II./J.G. 54
Tire damage. Fl.Pl. Jablowo 70% F
14/7/1943 Fw 190A-5 W.Nr. 1501322 6./J.G. 54
Willmann, Ltn. Kurt -- gefallen
enemy fire. Pl.Qu. 54353 100%
16/7/1943 Fw190A-4 W.Nr. 147117 6./J.G. 54
Landungsunfall, Fl. Pl. Panikowo, 30%

I hope that all is well with you.

Horrido!

Leo

[Nokose]

Leo,
I checked in the reference section of Gorbac's book for his source. It seems to have come from a book printed in 1974 in Moscow by F.A. Kostenko with the title of Корпус Крылатой Гвардии (I believe it translates as The Group Of the Winged Guards). It's a Soviet era book. The date could be wrong on the Russian side in this book that he used.

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by Leo Etgen

Hello Nokose

Many thanks for looking up about Weismann. I looked through Pawel Burchard's excellent website and found no other losses for JG 51 or JG 54 that were due to a collision aside of Scheel's on either 14 July or 16 July 1943.

Stab and Stabsstaffel/JG 51
14/7/1943 Fw 190A-5 W.Nr. 1189 Stabsstaffel J.G. 51
Sauber, Uffz. Robert -- gefallen
Luftkampf, Pl.Qu. 54575, south of Uljanowo 100% F

I hope that all is well with you.

Horrido!

Leo

Hello :

Pl.Qu. 54575, is not precisely the south of Uljanowo, its 40 km SSW of Ulianovo and 30 km NNO of Karatchev (Karatschew).
Forward that Krapiwna, is unmoveable to talk about "South of Uljanowo.
We must limit the " Raum von Uljanowo" in the space between the rivers Jizdr (north), Resseta ((west) Resseta (east) and in the south by the axis Ktsyn' - Yagodnïa).

Further on, it's another world.


I am posting because I have just spent quite a long time looking for several sources to resolve this imprecision, when identifying the victories of the 1st Soviet Air Army.

The General Stab reports are already quite imprecise in terms of toponymy (transcription errors on maps, transcription errors by secretaries, ignorance of the very high rate of topographical homonyny in Russia), without adding false information.

On the original document (RL_2_III_1191p.100, n°29), it is written:
07/14/43 – Stab./J.G.51 – Pl.Qu. 54575 (12 km NNW Karatschew) – nicht gemeldet – FW 190 A5 n° 1189 – 100% – Ufz Sauber.

Who is the criminal who added "south of Uljanowo" which becomes for example on KLA (kracker Luftwaffe archive), only "south Uljanowo!

https://aircrewremembered.com/Kracke...rch_type=exact

Have a Pl. Qu. is fortunate because it is unambiguous, a toponym is equivocal due to Russian topographical homonyms, a direction is hell...

[Leo Etgen]

Hello Courtois

I have no idea who summarized the location as south of Uljanowo but I can add that the relevant Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945 by Prien, Stemmer, Rodeike and Bock volume has the following regarding this particular loss:

14 July 1943: Unteroffizier Robert Sauber of Stabsstaffel/JG 51 killed in aerial combat with 8 to 10 fighters in Fw 190 A-5 "Black 5" (W.Nr. 0150 1189) which crashed burning 20 kilometres southeast of Uljanowo, Pl.Qu. 35 Ost / 54472, 100%

I hope this helps.

Horrido!

Leo