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Old 19th September 2005, 18:58
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Second „Katyn Case” - 22-30 June 1941!

Second „Katyn Case” - 22-30 June 1941!



Some strange comments made by on the former my post about 17 IX 1939 by one man with very creazy vison of history Polish-Russia relation (pure post-soviet menthality) had influcenced me to present second less know but very importan case about WW II. This is tighly related with crulety on German-Russian fornt 1941-1945.



I am writing about it as a Second “Katyn” Genocidy made by Russian between 22-30 June 1941 on the East part of ex-Polish territory.

This is less know case of Russian mass-morder done in very short period between 22-30 June 1941.

When the German army with the Rumanian Ally had invaded Russia on 22 VI 1941 (for me it was clear preemptive attack – Stalin would be attacked Germans on 20-24 July 1941 and the Hitler had saved the Western Europe from communism) Russian had began to clean the whole prisons on the occupied Polish terrritory (there were: 201.000 km2, 13,2 mln people, 51,1% of former Poland captured in IX/X 1939. They had had in the prisons tens tausends Polish, Ukrainian, Białorussian, Jews ect. prisoners.

The Russian orders were clear criminals could be freed and political prisonres, nationalist like Ukrianian from OUN, from Polish undeground, should be killed in the prisons – no mercy for them - to kill them all.

There were in Lituania republic 5.900 priosners in Białorssian republic 16.357, Urkainian republic 23.236 priosners. This are date before on 10 VI 1941. When the war bagan the new hundreds/a few tausends peopkle had be imprisons. For example Ukrianina bagan a mutiny (upraisning) in Lvov and they began to shot into back of Soviet soldiers in 23-25 June. Hundreds such people (diversnats) were put into the prisons in Lvov and where never registered in Soviet prisons statistics. The same was with German PoW – airmen, soldiers ect, which were kept in prisons.

Rusian/Soviet NKVD staffs had began this big killing in all prisons which were in the “Western Bialorus and Western Ukriana” and Germans could captured them (sson it would happen).

According estimation in several June days were mordered by Russians about 20-30.000 priosners (mostly civils). Among killed there in tens priosns were also German PoW (a few tens no more then 100). There were of course not so many of them but several Luftwaffe crews were shot down and taken to the priosns (in Lvov) for example. The same fate had Germans soldiers from advanced troops who where cut off from the own units. All these people were massacred (by fire, granates, by kifes ect).



In VIII 2000 was edited in Germany in Propylaen editor a book written by Bogdan Musiał “Kontrrevolutionare elemente sind zu erschissen. Die Brutalisierung des deuctch-sowjetischen Kireges in Sommer 1941, Berlin-Munchen 2000, II edition in 2001. The book had had many comments in most important German magazines: Der Spigel, Die Zeit, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung and others. There were also many discution in others German newspapers. There were some discutions about it in: Austria, France, USA too. The book was on the top-ten bestseller books list made by Suddeuche Zeitung as a specialist publication.

In Poland it was edited in 2001 as a “Rozstrzelac elementy kontrewolucjne. Brutalizacja wojny niemiecko-sowieckiej latem 1941 roku”. Bogdan Musiał (Ph.D. of Hanover University) is working in German Historical Institute in Warsaw. He is German citisens with Polish orgins.



This is very important book which let many of you (reding German and Polish) undrestand the war with Sovites. Many German soldiers went to these priosns and on own eyes saw the true about Soviet regime It was cultural schock. After what did they see German had decide to fight with “Jews-Bolshewism” and this what they see there make their “hearts” harder for Sovites. Blind revange was created there and the total war against “judo-bolsheiwzm” was at the top of German propaganda schedule list.

Many leater crimes done by Germans had roots in these first days of war in Russia. The book is written by prosessional hisotrians on many documents talkings with witness, reports. German propaganda had perfectly used this “material” to create the heatred toward Soviets/ Russian, Jews, ect. The book is fundamental for those who are interested in war on the East.



PS.

1). Some aditional about first Katyń made by Russian in the spring 1940. Soviets had paied the killers about 5 rubli for one killed/per head (1 kg of bread costed 1,05 rubla). There were 59 Russians who shots Poles. Among mordered officers were about 500-600 Polish offcieres with a Jew orgins too, also some/a few Russian, Georgian, ect.).

2. This is true that many Boałorusian and Ukrianinan (the poorest class) had warmly welcomed invaded army. But soon all had beed changed. There is such sentence in Białorussian created in this period (Soviet full freedom and liberty + bigg happienes of X 1939- VI 1941). I put it first in orginal:

“Za Polaka nie baczyla swietu sraka. Kak pryszol Soviet, obaczyła sraka swiet”.

The translation is ”Under Poles our bottoms/asses had never seen the world. When Soviet had come our bottoms/asses had seen the world”. Funy this is not Poles made but Białorrussian made.

3. During Great pruges 1937-1938 Russian/Soviets had arrested 1.575.000 people sentenced were - 1.345.00 (85,4%) of whom killed where - 681.692 (51%) killed/shot in the head. This is according NKVD official statistic (this is the lowest figures of killed) . These 681.692 killed are not full and complete data (not dead in prison, killed during interrogation; dead in Ggułags in 1917 – 25.000 in 1938-90.000). Among this mordered in 1937-38 the most killed where the Polish miniority/orgins. During so called “Polish operation where sentenced 139.835 people of whom 111.091 where killed (15-VIII-1937 to 15-XI-1938). Not all were pure etnhical Poles but even thoes who had “sviaz-union with Poles cold be killed. Poles were no less the 10% of the Great Pruges victims and 40% of amount victimes against national miniorites. This is the lowes data.



4). German had made much more cirmes/Genocidy towards Poles citisnes (Poles, Jews, Gypcies, Białorussians, Ukrainian) between 1939-1945 the Russian did in Poland this is obvious. But when you compare the same period of occupatin The Russian are much more better the German in the period IX 1939 VI 1941. They then had made much more cirmes/genocidy then German toward Polish citisnes.



5) “Poor is the nation that has no heros but beggared is the nation that has, and forgets them” This is a sayig from the American Civil War but also valid for me. As a Pole I have duty to remeber about Poles and our history and do not let to make any false, not true opinion about them. I too much well know our Polish “ups and downs”, about Tschoslovakia from 1938-39 too, as others things, which are not nice for us -Poles – and can always openly and frankly talk all about these matters (especialy this not good for us).



Regards

Mirek Wawrzynski

a Pole
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  #2  
Old 19th September 2005, 19:55
edwest edwest is offline
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Re: Second „Katyn Case” - 22-30 June 1941!

For those who wish to learn more about this, I suggest the following site:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1791/books.html


Sadly, massacres are a part of warfare, as is genocide or attempted genocide. The recent events in Bosnia-Herzcegovina with images of emaciated men in prison camps could have been taken in World War II. Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions, including some of his own military officers.


Ed
  #3  
Old 19th September 2005, 20:10
Mazila Mazila is offline
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Re: Second „Katyn Case” - 22-30 June 1941!

Is this topic aviation related ?

let's move it to General WWII

I would appreciate admin reaction on some revisionist statements that are in Mirek message ( smthing like "Stalin would be attacked Germans on 20-24 July 1941 and the Hitler had saved the Western Europe from communism") which are nothing but nazi propaganda.
  #4  
Old 19th September 2005, 20:37
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Re: Second „Katyn Case” - 22-30 June 1941!

Although I am repeating myself I will state once more that this forum does not automatically endorse Mirek's or similar views simply because we allow these threads to continue.

But I do question the wisdom of using 12oclockhigh.net as a method of reminding "the world".

The question is why are these repeated posts being made by the same people again and again?
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Old 19th September 2005, 20:52
ArtieBob ArtieBob is offline
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Re: Second „Katyn Case” - 22-30 June 1941!

This is in no way a defense of Stalinist USSR and its many acts of oppression, both for people of other nations or it's own. IMHO, there is very little evidence that Stalin had actually planned to attack the nazi territories in July 1941 and thus the Germann attack was preemptive defense. If one studies nazi doctrine, it seems quite apparent that the "living space" that was required for it's empire plans were to the East and the only question was when the nazis would continue their agression again in that direction. I believe there is an massive amount of documentation supporting this position. This would thus have truly made any move by Stalin West a defensive preemptive attack. So, what came first, the chicken or the egg, i.e., nazi or USSR aggrssive intentions. As noted above, I believe the documentation is overwhelming the nazi aggression came first. My knowledge of USSR abnd Russian history indicates that the long term interestwas to aquire territory and influence to the South. Finally, I believe the best predictor of future behavior of a person (i.e.,dictator) or regime is past behavior. Certainly there are few examples of aggressive territory takeover that can match that of nazi Germany (I suppose the invasions of Denmark, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, etc. were defending against future attacks on the German empire by those aggressive military giants?), and although Stalin's USSR was oppressive, I believe it's territorial aggression was driven more by opportunism that a "master plan".
Having to choose whether to have had the European land mass dominated by either nazi Germany or Stalinist USSR IMHO was no choice at all. Both regimes have now been consigned the junkpile of history where they and their ilk belong. There were then, and are now, better paradigms for Europe and the world, none being perfect, for they all include rather imperfect human beings.

The main problem with straying from airplanes in this forum is that almost without fail, we end up with bad history.

Best regards,

Artie Bob
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Old 19th September 2005, 21:00
edwest edwest is offline
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Re: Second „Katyn Case” - 22-30 June 1941!

In my view, due to the knowledge of the people here, those who post about these subjects feel they have the perfect audience. It appears that the trauma of the War and the subsequent Soviet Occupation has compelled them to educate Westerners with the truth about Stalin and the Soviet Union.

It also appears that they take offense to the Russians being referred to as Allies.

Also, Polish language books have a limited market in Western countries, and it is similar for English language books about Polish history for this time period. I can see how it would be difficult to spend about half a century living with propaganda about the War.



Ed
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Old 19th September 2005, 21:34
Mazila Mazila is offline
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Re: Second „Katyn Case” - 22-30 June 1941!

The problem is that most poles are generally unhappy about polish history.

Certainly it was really a bad lack to be between Russia and the West.

The bad thing for Poland was that almost nobody on the West cared about poor "psheks" for 200+ years while they were a toy of russian politics. Nobody helped them against Russians as well as against Germans. The West always sacrificed Poland in deals with her big and agressive neighbours.

Poles are free now but some people there can't get rid of their old limitrophe inferiority complex.

They need a revenge.

It's understood but boring

Last edited by Mazila; 19th September 2005 at 21:38.
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Old 19th September 2005, 21:58
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Second „Katyn Case” - 22-30 June 1941!

Personally, I think both Ed and Artie have some right, though I would not necessarily agree with all their views.
It is also not only a trauma but a very physical consequences of Soviet dominance, that result in economical collapse. It is also due to links between former agents of communistic secret services, including spies in the west. This is a cancer that must be removed in interest of all of us. It affects also understanding of history - Russians and then Soviets paid hard bucks to influential journalists and writers just to create aview of their country and history that had fitted their needs. Amassement of extreme leftist at some universities is not a coincidence.
Of course this worked perfectly when none was able to get inside of the Soviet Union - please note what had happenned to eg. US airmen, who 'infiltrated' behind the border during the WWII. Of course, we, 'insiders', have a vastly different experience and we want to show it both to get some truth but also to get some safety. Truth is just the best killer of communism.
Thus said, I have to make some comments to Artie Bob's post.
Actually there is a lot of (indirect) evidence that Soviets were redying to an agressive war. I think most important document is an operational plan for aviation of White Russian Front, that leaves no doubt about aggressive character. I would suggest to open another thread for the subject, however.
The same concerns German doctrine. If one reads Mein Kampf, he will understand. The main objective was to avoid a war on two fronts at all costs. They failed, a question is - why?
Finally, about Soviet aggression. This was an aggressive country as was Russia to some degree. Their main objective was to regain control over all the former Russian Empire. Then, the sphere of influence and ultimately occupation had to be widened. It is apparent from Trotsky but also from the moves of Soviet government. They just did it another way rather than Germans. They first were establishing a communistic opposition, quite often by overtaking an existing one, then pumped them with money and finally either sponsored a 'peaceful democratic' takeover or military coup. This way they did or attempted to in France, Greece, Italy or Spain in Europe, Chile and Cuba in Latin America, Afghanistan and Vietnam in Asia, etc. They were only partially successfull with such countries like China or Yugoslavia. I am not counting revolutions in Germany and Hungary in 1918 but perhaps I should do so as well. Really, Soviet imperialism is a fascinating stuff but even more impressive is their propaganda.
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Old 19th September 2005, 22:08
Mazila Mazila is offline
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Re: Second „Katyn Case” - 22-30 June 1941!

Franek

As far as I can get from you and your friend Mirek,

Frankly speaking ,

everything what's happened is jewish-bolshevik conspiracy against Poland, right?

Last edited by Mazila; 19th September 2005 at 22:11.
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Old 19th September 2005, 22:32
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Re: Second „Katyn Case” - 22-30 June 1941!

Quote:
"Stalin would be attacked Germans on 20-24 July 1941 and the Hitler had saved the Western Europe from communism"
Really??? As far as I know Polish people advoctae that Poland smashed communism alone! But I am sure all we can agree communism was smashed by Hitler and Poland together!

Quote:
The question is why are these repeated posts being made by the same people again and again?
Good question! I am interesting whether these two guys represent majority or minority of Polish society. If really majority then Dear God save us...

Quote:
everything what's happened is jewish-bolshevik conspiracy against Poland, right?
I would personally add entire masonry to that list! You know...compen$ations for poor Poland would be bigger...

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Last edited by Obst. Zerstorer; 19th September 2005 at 22:49.
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