Free French Jean Demozay claims ??

[keith A]

Possibly, although at least two other pilots are more likely claimants. A Canadian called Fox or "Bim" Oliver of 602 Squadron. A Typhoon pilot is also sometimes credited.

[Many Souffan]

Originally Posted by knusel

Good morning Gentlemen,

what about the claimed Bf109's on 17Jul41, 25Jul41 and 25Nov41 ?
Why were they accepted by the French but not by the British ?

Cheers,

Michael

Hello Michael.

I don't know where you found these infos, but whatever.

Before to give you my answer, I must explain to you one thing.

When General de Gaulle came in England on the 17 June 1940 he was with major (at this time) Spears The latter was very close to Churchill, he was a Francofile who loved France, and above all he was there to report all the actions and gestures of General de Gaulle to Churchill. With the Checkers agreements of August 7, 1940, signed between the British government and the Free French, a mission called Mission Spears was created. All question, all information about a situation, about a Free French had to go through this mission. The same for a loss of a pilot, an accident or a victory claim.

After what I have just written, you can understand what will follow: an error is always human...

- 16th July 41, Demozay claimed (as written in his logbook) 1ME 109 E probably destroyed 10 miles East of Dover (confirmed by RAF). A report was sent by the Spears Mission to FFAF HQ. During the transcription, the French made a date error of July 17 instead of July 16.

- 26th July 41. Demozay claimed (as written in his logbook) 1ME 109 E destroyed off Calais (Confirmed by RAF). Once again a bad transcription by the French with an error of date. the 26th July became for the French the 25th July

- 25th November 41, Demozay claimed (as written in his logbook) 1 Me 109 destroyed 2 Me damaged on ground (confirmed by RAF) and here, there is no mistake the French transcription was fine.

Hope to have answered.

Many Souffan.

[knusel]

Good evening dear Many,

thanks a lot for sharing your interesting background knowledge !
Thus, I suppose the 21 kills indicated in the official SHAA list for Demozay are:
1. 08/11/40=Ju 88
2. 24/03/41=Bf 109
3. 10/05/41=He 111
4. 25/05/41=Bf 110
5. 22/06/41=Bf 109
6. 23/06/41=Bf 109
7. 16/07/41=Bf 109
8. 26/07/41=Bf 109
9. 31/07/41=Bf 109
10. 31/07/41=Bf 109
11. 09/08/41=Bf 109
12. 29/08/41=Bf 109
13. 13/09/41=Bf 109
14. 16/09/41=Bf 109
15. 09/10/41=Bf 109
16. 12/11/41=Bf 109
17. 25/11/41=Bf 109
18. 02/01/42=Bf 109
19. 23/09/42=Fw 190
20. 31/10/42=Fw 190
21. 31/10/42=Fw 190
None of them is shared, correct ?

Best greetings from Switzerland,

Michael

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by knusel

Is it the one Mr Le Roux who shot up Rommel ?

Yes, the one.

https://peek-01.livejournal.com/84600.html

Originally Posted by keith A

I have studied another pilot from 91 Squadron who has faced the same questions, "Chris" Le Roux. This South African was well known for his tall tales but is no less interesting for that. Like his contemporary, Demozay very few of his claims are verifiable from LW records, and his score has been increased in several biographical sketches by the addition of aircraft destroyed on the ground. Curiously in one instance at the beginning of his career he only claims a "probable" but this is upgraded to "destroyed" by senior officers on very flimsy evidence. He receices his AOC congratulations for a leter double victory again on unsubstantial evidence. I have wondered if his later, almost certainly inflated. claims were influenced by this. For example his last victory on 31 July 1944 was for an Fw190 which he states flew into the ground while he was chasing it, without gun camera evidence (he had used up his ammo against MET). He is also credited with shooting down Ltn Paul Galland on 31 October 1942 day when both he and Demozay claimed double victories. Le Roux received congratulations from his AOC again!

This is a very interesting observation. It seems some Intelligence Officers or rather Sector commanders were quite liberal in awarding victories. But on the other hand, researching those combats is quite confusing. For example, quite recently I came across a report, that German aircraft were seen to collide and fall down. No claim was filed as there was no action, just an observation, so no reason to suspect ill intentions. Still, no loss return substantiate that.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by knusel

1. 08/11/40=Ju 88
2. 24/03/41=Bf 109
3. 10/05/41=He 111
4. 25/05/41=Bf 110
5. 22/06/41=Bf 109
6. 23/06/41=Bf 109
7. 16/07/41=Bf 109
8. 26/07/41=Bf 109
9. 31/07/41=Bf 109
10. 31/07/41=Bf 109
11. 09/08/41=Bf 109
12. 29/08/41=Bf 109
13. 13/09/41=Bf 109
14. 16/09/41=Bf 109
15. 09/10/41=Bf 109
16. 12/11/41=Bf 109
17. 25/11/41=Bf 109
18. 02/01/42=Bf 109
19. 23/09/42=Fw 190
20. 31/10/42=Fw 190
21. 31/10/42=Fw 190

Looking at the claims listed (and accepting the damaged claim on 8 Nov 1940 was confirmed later) I still only have 19 claims.
The two problem dates are
16 July 1941 and since Many also says probable, how and when did this become a confirmed?
25 Nov 1941 was a claimed Bf 109 destroyed on the ground! How can this be added to his total? Changed somewhere?
I am not sure if Many means this one was destroyed on the ground or not (Sorry Many!)

Cheers
Stig

[knusel]

Good afternoon Stig,

yes that's odd. May it be that during transcription the French mistook

- 16th July 41: 1Me 109 probably destroyed and confirmed as a probable by the RAF for confirmed as destroyed

and

- 25th November 41: 1Me 109 destroyed on the ground and 2Me damaged on ground for 1Me 109 destroyed in the air and 2Me damaged on ground ?

Cheers,

Michael

[Many Souffan]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

Looking at the claims listed (and accepting the damaged claim on 8 Nov 1940 was confirmed later) I still only have 19 claims.
The two problem dates are
16 July 1941 and since Many also says probable, how and when did this become a confirmed?
25 Nov 1941 was a claimed Bf 109 destroyed on the ground! How can this be added to his total? Changed somewhere?
I am not sure if Many means this one was destroyed on the ground or not (Sorry Many!)

Cheers
Stig

Hello Stig.

Don't Worry I find like you, 19 Confirmed.

For the 16th July 41 The combat report written by Demozay is really a Probable. F/O Mac Lean has written like that in the LB of the Free French pilot.

For the 25th november is more complex It Is written by the hand of Mac Lean The I/O of 91 Sqn in the same line I destroyed two Damaged on the ground And I think the 3 are on the ground but at the end the total of november 41, always written by the I/O the destroyed of 25th november is considered as destroyed in the air. How is written the composit report you can understand at the beginning of take off or during the rolling of the plane. What I remenber, I am not at home Demozay touch the plane fall on the wheels up and when he touch the ground, the plane boke in two parts.

When my book will be print out you will see all the LB and Combat reports. For me it seems for the 25th NOVEMBER 41, all planes are on the ground and the mistake come from Mac Lean.

Thank you.

[Franek Grabowski]

In 1942 Fighter Command did a review of credited victories, with some being rejected, downgraded or upgraded. I have no more information on that, but that such an action did exist.
Thus combat reports may not necessarily be the best surce for the final status of victories.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Many for your confirmations!

Keep up the good work!!!

Cheers
Stig

[knusel]

Hello,

the Service historique de l'armée de l'air, which created the official list of French WW2 Aces, which indicated 21 kills for Demozay, ceased to exist in 2005. Otherwise we would have been able to inform them and ask them to reassess his score.

Cheers,

Michael