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Old 11th April 2011, 19:46
Daniel Nole Daniel Nole is offline
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Korea- November 1950

November 1950 was the month of the aparition of the MiG-15s over Korea, to be precise , the Nov 1, 1950.
Some decissions were taked after the initial "shock" of the November 1, and one of theses, was the USAF Vanderberg's Orders Issue of Nov 11, 1950 to send the 4th FIW and his F-86A-5 Sabres inmediately for Korea.
A few days after, a order of the same type was issue for the 27th FEW with his F-84E Thunderjets to leave also for Korea.

Well the point, if we search or read the activities of the MiGs in this first 10 days of November, we find nothing of spectacular or extraordinary with the MiGs after official documents availables. Officialy , and the day before the date order of Nov, 11, the MiGs victories were one B-29 the 9th and another the 10th. Both kills were "more on less" admitted by the USAF but nothing more. Certainly the MiGs can be a risk for the B-29s, but also a risk is a Yak-9 or La-11 with a average pilot. Already, one B-29s was shot down some months before by the KPAFAC Yaks.
About this date of Nov, 11, and if we read the official documents and claims, the MiGs were far of be a risk, several were hits by F-51D Mustangs, another one was shot down by one Panther , the 9th, and this same day, 11th Nov, another one of the 28th GIAP was damaged by F-80s and crashed in landing.

After some sources , the meeting in the Pentagon and the decision to send the F-86 and F-84 to Korea was the 8th November, about this date, also, no B-29s were loss in Korea and officialy nothing other. Absolutly nothing was destroyed by MiGs. The order was issue the Nov 11.

Why so a panic and move for a so weakest enemy plane with nothing to display and show in his first eights days of missions in Korea?

Really, officially, nothing was shot down by MiGs from Nov 1 to Nov 8, 1950?

We go to the situation in Korea in November 1950.

V-VS

V-VS flew 384 sorties in response to 2525 detected enemy sorties.

UNITS

151th IAD(28th and 72th GIAP) complement was about 50 MiGs.

Nov 8, 1950 there was an change in the Soviet Order of Battle. A new regiment, the 67th IAP, was made taking elements
of all the two regiments of the 151th IAD, and the 139th GIAP to create a new division: the 28th IAD.

From this date the Soviet Order of Battle was two fighter divisions, the 151th GIAD(28th GIAP and 72th GIAP)and the 28th IAD(67th IAP and 139th GIAP).Total complement of the two Divisions was about 95-100 MiGs.

The 151th IAD(28th GIAP and 72th GIAP) flew his last mission the Nov 15th 1950.
Right from the start the V-VS High Commamnd decided that the 151th GIAD and 28th IAD would be only temporarily assigned to the task to provide air cover to the Chinese ground offensive against the UN forces in Korea, they would fill the gap only until the 50th IAD arrived to Mukden and then Anshan the Nov 25th 1950.
First MiG-15bis were operated by the 50th IAD(29th GIAP and 177th IAP)the Nov 30, 1950.

V-VS sorties and dates:

Nov 1th
Nov 6th
Nov 7th
Nov 8th
Nov 9th(First MiG-15 loss,Kapt M.Grachev-KIA, 139th GIAP)(Engage US Navy CV-47 Philippine Sea Strike)
Nov 10th(Engage US Navy CV-47 Philippine Sea Strike)
Nov 11th(Second MiG loss,St/Lt Nasonov-KIA, 28th GIAP)(Vanderberg's Order issue for the 4th FIW to leave inmediately for Korea)
Nov 12th(Engage US Navy CV-32 Leyte strike)US Navy claimed 1 MiG, 2 damages. Actually no MiG losses or damaged were reported by the V-VS this day.
Nov 14th(two B-29 damaged by MiGs, one possible writte off)
Nov 15th(last mission of the MiGs of the 151th IAD)
Nov 18th(Third MiG loss, Sn/Lt A.Tarshinov-MIA, 67th IAP.(US Navy claims were for 2 MiGs kills).67th IAP claims were for two Panthers.
Nov 20th The 177th IAP(50th IAD)arrives at Anshan.Transfered(one squadron)to Antung the 15-12-50(MiG-15 bis)
Nov 25th The 29th GIAP(50th IAD)arrives at Anshan.Transfered to Antung the 03-12-50(MiG-15bis)
Nov 27th 177th IAP(50th IAD)ready to combat and transfer.
Nov 30th First mission of the 29th GIAP(and first in Korea for the MiG-15bis).B-29 raid over Sinuiju,29th GIAP scramble from Anshan to intercept but failing to make contact.

CLAIMS(As noted, are claims no confirmed kills)
(Or as say by Pepelyayev:"Not everything that was scored was actually shot down")

Nov 1th 2 F-80 and 1 F-51 Mustang(72th GIAP)(some sources mention Capt Frank Doyle F-80(7th FBS)as one of the victims).
Nov 6th 2 F-51(72th GIAP)(23 sorties were flown by the 151th IAD this day).
Nov 7th 2 F-51(1 to 72th GIAP, 1 to 28th GIAP)(F-51 were engaged five times).
Nov 8th 3 F-51(2 to 72th GIAP and one to 28th GIAP).
Nov 9th 1 B-29 and 2 F-80(72th GIAP)(The B-29 in some sources is one of the few losses admitted by the USAF).
Nov 10th 1 F-80(72th GIAP)2 F-51(28th GIAP)and one B-29(139th GIAP)(This one is also admitted by the USAF).
Nov 11th 1 F-80(28th GIAP)(The second MiG loss, was hit in this attack.His pilot(St Lt Nasonov was killed in the landing process).
Nov 12th 12 MiGs engaged 16 F9F Panthers of the VF-31(CV-32 Leyte) escorting a strike of AD-4 Skyraiders in a strike over Sinuiju. No claims, no losses and no MiG damaged.Several other MiG sorties this day against F-80s and B-29, but no claims were submited this day.
Nov 14th 4 B-29(3 to 139th GIAP and 1 to 67th IAP)(USAF admitted two B-29 damaged this day).
Nov 18th 2 F9F Panthers(67th IAP).

LOSSES

3 MiG losses. Two were shot down by the Panthers of the US Navy(VF-111 and VF-31), the third, Nasonov MiG was shot down by two USAF F-80s of the 51th FIW(LtCol Clure Smith-1th Lt G.Hanson).

Five MiGs were damaged, two the Nov 7th(St/Lt Chizh, St/Lt Dubronin), two the Nov 8th(St/Lt Kharitonov, St/Lt Savin),and one the 14th Nov by B-29 defensive fire(St/Lt Podgonry).
Three of the MiGs were damaged by F-51Ds,one by F-80C(Kharitonov) and the last by B-29.
Also, USAF Mustangs shot down 5 KPAFAC Yak-9s this month(1th,2th and 6th November)

Daniel

Last edited by Daniel Nole; 13th April 2011 at 02:51.
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Old 12th April 2011, 17:28
JoeB JoeB is offline
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Re: Korea- November 1950

The encounter between MiG's and Leyte's air group was Nov 12, not 13th, as both sides agree. Also Philippine Sea F9F's encountered MiG's again Nov 10 as well as Nov 9. The specific circumstances of the 'F-80' and 'F-51' claims on the 10th are an obvious match with Philippine Sea's air group combat reports, and don't match detailed handwritten USAF operations logs available in this period. The MiG pilots themselves didn't necessarily make these recognition errors. The most original Soviet reports of this period are often vague about the types of a/c, but some decision had to be made for the permanent official versions. In one case in November 1950 a higher level report had actual F-51's engaged ID'ed as F-84's, or F-82's! F4U/AD's were sometimes called 'carrier Thunderbolts' in initial reports, but that type doesn't appear in the final official victory lists for the Soviets.

Likewise the Soviet process for official victories at the start is a little 'fuzzy'. For example there were claims for prop a/c made in the Nov 9 combat v USN in the original reports, and more than 2 jets including 'F-80's claimed in the USN combat and other real F-80's claimed in an afternoon combat. Also on Nov 10 when the B-29 was actually downed, what were believed to be escorting 'carrier Thunderbolts' were claimed too (USN F4U-4P recon flight in the same area) and there were other claims v B-29 formations and F-80 escorts. I counted 29 claims made in November 1950 by the MiG's mentioned in their combat reports.

OTOH 'US admitted' implies (to me) there's something else 'not admitted'. IMHO this is not a good phrase for objective air war historians to use, with regard to anyone's loss statistics, unless they can present the specific evidence of the things 'not admitted'. Claims made on one side are not, by themselves, evidence of losses on the other side, in any air war, IMO. The records sources in this period are really good (on both sides) and no US a/c were even possibly lost in air combat, by any evidence in then-secret US records AFAIK, except RB-29 44-61813 wrecked in crashlanding after MiG damage Nov 9 (note no strategic recon a/c losses were included in 1953 Stats Digest loss table, but they're clear in the records), and B-29 45-21814 shot down outright Nov 10.

I believe Clyde Whaley was the F-80 pilot who downed the MiG Nov 11, first USAF jet pilot to down another jet where the loss is also reflected in opposing records. The F-80's had been strafing ground targets almost all the time and it wasn't thought worth it to carry gun camera film, so he was lucky his claim was even accepted as 'probable'. But the time of Whaley's claim best matches the MiG loss, based on both sides' records.

Joe
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Old 12th April 2011, 19:03
FPSOlkor FPSOlkor is offline
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Re: Korea- November 1950

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Nole View Post
Nov 11th 1 F-80(28th GIAP)(The second MiG loss, was hit in this attack.His pilot(St Lt Nasonov was killed in the landing process).

Daniel
When I spoke to P. Ovsyannikov about Nasonov he said that he was wounded by single (!) "large caliber" bullet in the neck, and overturned his plane on landing after hitting an airplane shelter by wing. The plane by his words was not written off, but repaired and used in combat again.
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Old 13th April 2011, 02:46
Daniel Nole Daniel Nole is offline
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Re: Korea- November 1950

Quote:
The encounter between MiG's and Leyte's air group was Nov 12, not 13th, as both sides agree.
Yes, sorry I have reversed the dates of 12 and 13th November.

Quote:
When I spoke to P. Ovsyannikov about Nasonov he said that he was wounded by single (!) "large caliber" bullet in the neck, and overturned his plane on landing after hitting an airplane shelter by wing. The plane by his words was not written off, but repaired and used in combat again.
A fine work of the wounded Nasonov to take back to the base this MiG.
Thanks FPSolkor.

Daniel
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Old 13th April 2011, 17:06
Daniel Nole Daniel Nole is offline
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Re: Korea- November 1950

Quote:
I believe Clyde Whaley was the F-80 pilot who downed the MiG Nov 11, first USAF jet pilot to down another jet where the loss is also reflected in opposing records. The F-80's had been strafing ground targets almost all the time and it wasn't thought worth it to carry gun camera film, so he was lucky his claim was even accepted as 'probable'. But the time of Whaley's claim best matches the MiG loss, based on both sides' records.
That's correct. The credit go to Whaley. LeCol Clure Smith and 1th Garland Hanson, reported strikes on a MiG("With the Yanks in Korea")but the claim as probable was submitted by Whaley. Pity, USAF records no recognized officialy in the list of F-80s kills, his victory. Another one, full admitted by the V-VS but no claimed by the USAF, was Feb 23, 1951. Kapetan Gordeev ejected in combat with F-80s, but no victories were claimed by the USAF fighters.

Daniel
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