Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943

[Jochen Prien]

Gentlemen,

the immediate success of my prior posting referring to the clarification of a loss of III./JG 54 a couple of days ago encourages me to try it again:

In my sources I have a loss report from 3./JG 50 dated October 21st, 1943, which states that Uffz. Ulrich - no Christian name known - was shot down and killed in aerial combat near Kloster Chumb in Bf 109 G-6, WNr. 160 085.

As far as I can see there were no aerial activities over the Reich by daylight on October 21st at all and definitely no air combats.

So what have we got here - did this loss concern another unit - "Wilde Sau " at night ? -, was it the date again or what is wrong ?

Any founded help would be most welcome.

Regards

Jochen Prien

[Christer Bergström]

Hi Jochen,

1943-10-21
Bf 109G-6, WNr 160085 3./JG 50
Nördl. Kloster Chumb
Flugzeugführer Uffz Ullrich, Paul †
Absturz nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.

Please compare the Werknummer with a loss reported by II./JG 53 on 13 December 1943 - possibly WNr 160085 again...

Apparently, there is confusion regarding serial numbers of lost aircraft not only within the RAF...

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, Christer.

If you are referring to the aircraft damaged 15% due to pilot error at Wien-Seyring this is reported as WNr 150085 (not 160085) in the loss report of 16.12.1943.

Regards,
Andreas

[Jim P.]

The 150 xxx WNr. series were G-10s, all from 45. No record of JG 53 losing any other machine from this block. Also the lowest number I have is 150506.

[John Beaman]

Hi Jochen:

There seems to be a lot of conflicting data that day. I cannot add to what Christer and Jim have said regarding the loss, except the SKZ is listed as NA+TF.

In checking Foreman’s book, the only action listed by daylight were Ramrods by RAF and USSAF fighters where 5 Fw 190 claims were made by USAAF units. The action is listed as over France and the Low Countries. In checking Frank Oylnyk’s information, there were no claims made by USAAF units on 21-Oct., so something in wrong there. However, on 20-Oct there was an apparent Rodeo that went into France, the Low Countries. Several Fw 190 claims were made by USAAF units and pilots from the 353rd FG made 3 x Bf 109 damaged claims near Sittard and Duren. I am not sure where these are in relation to Kloster Chumb. I wonder if someone has a wrong date?

John

[Christer Bergström]

I think Jochen's Wilde Sau theory is the most plausible. Unfortunately, Alfred Grislawski ( who de facto led JG 50 by that time) is no longer among us so that we can ask him if he remembers that pilot.

[Andreas Brekken]

Interesting, Jim.

There is no doubt that the second digit in the loss report is a '5', I will make a scan and put out in this answer later tonight.

Regards,
Andreas

[Jim P.]

My guess is that its a typo and possibly WNr. 15085 - certainly something not uncommon with those documents. Interestingly, this is the only WNr. missing between 15080 and 15089 (15090 also missing) and many of these were JG 53 machines.

[Michal]

Jim P.,

it looks like very good explanation. I would guess you are right.

Best

Michal

[Rasmussen]

Unfortunately he isn't right because the W.Nr. 15 085 was an G - 4 trop with an accident on 12 February, 1943, in Leipzig - Mockau. The a/c was destroyed (IIRC 70%) and not accepted by BAL.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

P.S.: An typo of course ... but what about the 140 085? I checked the Prien - chronicle - there are some losses from the 140 xxx - batch like the 140 088, 140 084 and so on.