Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

[Franek Grabowski]

I am afraid that such a direct evidence does not exist. I think that the information on origin of existing lists is most interesting at the moment, as well as the place of capture of particular files. I gues there should be some reports prepared by the units finding them.

[ArtieBob]

IMHO, this thread has been flawed from the beginning, primarily be cause the wrong question was asked. The 1944 loss lists have been
sort of a "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe researchers for many years. If there was anything close to a real lead as to their current existence or
location, I am certain more than one of this sites participants would have been immediately following up on that lead. This may well have
already happened and there is a good chance you would not know. If you watch how this site works there are many participants who
share information freely, for example Matti, who is so generous with his material. There are others who simply say a particular item
is incorrect, but will not share either the correct information or source. I don't need to list any names , if you follow TOCH closely, you
know who they are. If one of those found the loss list, the rest of us would almost certtainly not know.

So in my humble opinion, the real question that could be answered by some of the site participants is; Are there document collections
that exist, that have not been well researched? A subsidiary question is identifying the why and how of a collection's provenance, which
might indicate whether the type of document you are searching for would have a reasonable probability of being included. For example,
much of the captured Luftwaffe material that came to the US had been sellected for its generic content, i.e.Wright Field-technical data,
USSBS-production and bomb damage, CIOS-technical, organizational, etc. Military operational material (i.e KTB, loss data, etc. was
of little value to these groups and if there are snippets of operational documents , they were probably there by accident. So, where
should one look? In the postwar years, USAF did studies of Luftwaffe operations in Germany (Karlsruhe) with ex-Luftwaffe personnel
participating, this resulted in a series of studies which can be found without too much effort. What I do not believe has really been studied
is the source material used for these studies. I believe some of that was microfilmed, but has not been available to researchers. Another
potential source may be University document collections, there are some with large amounts of WW II material.

There are probably not any large collections of original Luftwaffe documents remaining in the USA, as most was either returned to Germany
or destroyed by the early 1960s. There are some original documents in several locations, but the one I have handled were mostly technical
and the dregs that somehow missed the return to Germany process.

When researching material at the USNASM, the archivists pointed me to the Navy micofilms from the Paris clearing house, 152 rolls with no
indexing. I went frame by frame through this material and prepared a rough finding aid for mostly technical data. IIRC, there was another
unindexed microfilm collection (at the moment, I can't remember if it had a name). I did some preliminary sample scans through that
material and it seemed to be more of an operational nature and I believe there was even a small item of loss list material found. I was
dissapointed because it was a duplicate of a time period coverd in the IWM microfilms, although if my memory is correct, it did appear
to be made from a different copy than IWM.

If you are serious, there are some opportunities for finding material that has not been widely circulated. Work smart, ASK THE RIGHT
QUESTIONS, use archivists, in many cases, not only are they helpful, but have useful knowledge you might not expect. But if you are
serious, understand the commitment real research takes. Even with finding aids and assistance, researching a fairly narrow subject took
years, thousands of miles of travel, considerable financial investment, and staring at well over a milliom frames of often poor image quality
material, most of which was not what I was interested in. I started in the 1950s and am still, at 82, working on my projects, although at
this point, I do not do so much traveling, relying on helpful contacts in many countries, some of whom may be reading this.

Best Regards,
Artie Bob

[Steve Coates]

I take a different view but don't have a problem with yours. Personally speaking, I don't think it was the wrong question to ask given various rumours which have circulated as to the possible existence of these losses. The best way to counter rumour is with facts and evidence. I suspected it might be a long shot but I have at least dug into records to try and come up with answers and have at least been able to put something new on the table. The lack of anything of additional substance probably confirms that very little effort has been expended in this direction.

I suspect I am the only person who has reviewed the ADI(K) Captured German Document lists which contain references to stacks of documents which I would love to be able to read but which I strongly suspect have long since been destroyed.

In terms of surviving German German documents not restituted to Germany, Duxford is of course sitting on a huge stash although this is pretty much all of a technical nature, be it FD, GDC or HEC. It is for people to get to these places and to review this material.

I do owe you and the dear departed Richard Eger my thanks for your efforts in producing and sharing a finding aid to the US Navy / ADI(K) microfilms. I have ordered and digitised quite a number of these and have been very pleasantly surprised by the contents of a number of these reels, containing as they do documents which were almost certainly destroyed shortly after filming. The NASM holds some very interesting microfilm holdings. I’m attaching a note I received from the NASM giving outline details of some of these holdings.

[edwest2]

Again, not to waste anyone's time, but a few more things. I have a listing of the various US and British intelligence organizations that scoured, quite literally, all German occupied territories. This includes information about the little known, British T-Force and the American Counter-Intelligence Corps. There is published evidence of a high level of cooperation among the various teams. And there is evidence of files being later dumped in various states of disorder, or unindexed, at various locations in the US, and of duplicate microfilms being made. A substantial portion of T-Force related documents are still classified and there is no detailed history of the CIC in print. According to one source, a 3,000 page history of CIC activity during the war exists but has not been digitized and is only available for viewing in person.

I think an open or closed site that looks into this question further may be in order. This should start with a list that contains the identities of the various intelligence groups that were active during, and after the war in collecting physical documents, and producing microfilms. This should be followed by queries to the more obscure groups or, more likely, their successors, and identifying the lesser known archives and document repositories. Otherwise, this may be a problem addressed by a few as time passes and as finances allow, and with duplication of effort unless a list of leads is first created. And I tip my hat to all who have made the effort. If that is not done, more work by individuals will continue but a final answer will not have anything like a deadline.

- The following is additional material that can be ignored if desired. While reading the book T-Force by Sean Langdon, I came across information regarding the relative freedom of movement, and secrecy, surrounding T-Force operations on the continent. The fine strainer was used to insure that every usable drop of intelligence was extracted. Scientists were put in uniform and even given rank during this time period. Various photo books had been compiled showing target sites and persons of interest. Sometimes, target scientists had been detained by other military units, and were released to T-Force and its American counterpart. The CIC helped as well.

However, there were two incidents that stood out to me. One was where a lorry at an unidentified location had been loaded with documents, also unidentified, and then driven off by men wearing British uniforms but obviously unknown to T-Force. There is no further explanation, and no mention of giving chase. Another incident involves a British factory owner of some reputation showing up at a site secured by T-Force. How he managed to get through is not explained. The officer asked what he wanted and he appeared to know the site housed a machine for the making of garments, and which was something superior to what was available to him. He asked for it to be crated up and sent on to his company. The officer in charge pointed out that this was a military operation and sent him off. Within a day or two of filing a complaint about this man, he received an order to have the machinery crated up and sent to the company as previously requested, care of the Ministry of Supply.

Best,
Ed

[Jim P.]

Nothing to add really, but I have to say that this is one of the more interesting and enlightening discussions that I've seen on the site in a long while.

And while probably generally known I'll mention them anyway, there are two fiche sets available from German archives with fragmentary losses for Nov/Dec-1944.

Gen.Qu.6.Abt.-BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/1170
Gen.Qu.6.Abt.-BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/766

And the Schulen losses are more or less complete through to Aug/Sep-44. The last set I've seen is BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/780, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw. I should also note, though outside the scope of this discussion, for most of the 41-43 time frame there are two sets of fiche for Schulen losses, and they're not identical. Different handwritten notes, missing or illegible pages from one set are included in the other, etc. A painful memory.......

[Steve Coates]

Thanks.

If anyone is interested in sight of the various bits and pieces I've referenced in this thread, most of which exceed the upload size limits for the board, I've put them up for download via WeTransfer. This link will will only be live for seven days.

https://we.tl/t-mx0QTp8Ddp

[edNorth]

The Lumber from K-2 will soon appear on eBay and reach sky-high amounts.
Likely to be taken with grain of Salt.

But on serious note, Thanks!
-Ed

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by Steve Coates

Thanks.

If anyone is interested in sight of the various bits and pieces I've referenced in this thread, most of which exceed the upload size limits for the board, I've put them up for download via WeTransfer. This link will will only be live for seven days.

https://we.tl/t-mx0QTp8Ddp

Thanks very much Steve !

[Steve Coates]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I also put out an enquiry to the AHB. They have now kindly responded and confirmed that amongst their holdings of listings of captured documents which were sent to the Americans, Canadians and various other agencies, there is not a single mention of the 1944 losses.

In the absence of alternative evidence, it would seem that the 1944 losses were never captured which pretty much closes out this thread.

[John Vasco]

If I may add something to this thread.

Whereas the Quartermaster returns for 1944 have still not been found, there is another resource that could provide a lot of information. However, the caveat is that nowadays it might be almost impossible to see the things, never mind getting the information from them.

That resource is the Namentliche Verlustmeldungen. In 1940, a lot did not give any details of aircraft type flown, fuselage code, W. Nr.. However, as the months progressed into years, that information was included in them. Being able to obtain a full set of them for SKG 210/ZG 1 enabled me to compile the loss/damage tables for my book 'Sting of the Luftwaffe' fairly accurately.

Over the decades, the Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt) became more and more guarded about the contents of these loss returns, and as far as I know, they will now only divulge information to close relatives.

What WOULD be brilliant would be if the WASt were to put together a voluntary team to go through the 1944 NVM and provided the information covering unit, date, aircraft type, W. Nr., fuselage code, crew (ranks and fate) in a simple format. I'm pretty sure that information is there at that source, but bringing it out in the manner I suggest is, I think, never going to happen...