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Old 11th November 2019, 21:59
SteveR SteveR is offline
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Questions About 21 June 1940 Attack on Scharnhorst

On 21 June 1940 two Hudsons from 233 Squadron (S/L Feeny and Sgt. Crabtree) along with two more from 224 Squadron (F/L Womersley and P/O Lynn) attacked Scharnhorst off the Norwegian coast. S/L Feeny's Hudson was shot down in flames.

233 Squadron's Form 541 gives a t/o time of 1245 hours for Feeny and 1315 hours for Crabtree, with Crabtree landing at 1845 hours. It further states that Scharnhorst was located and attacked in position LXOX 2543.

Can anyone please tell me where LXOX 2543 would be nearest on the Norwegian coast?

I ask because McNeill's Coastal Command Losses book says that Feeny was shot down by Oblt. Jung of 5./JG77 off Utsire. From Tony Woods' list I see the time of Jung's claim as 2026 hours, and even allowing for the one hour time difference between the U.K. and Norway, watches not being synchronized, possible typos, etc. it doesn't seem to me that Jung could have been Feeny's victor due to the time discrepancy.

To further complicate things Woods also lists 2 claims that day at 1531 hours N.N.W. Haugesund and at 1620, 1624, and 2 at 1645 hours westlich Hardangerfjord (I imagine these last four must relate to the three 42 Squadron Beauforts lost attacking Scharnhorst which, according to Shores in Fledgling Eagles, happened after the attack by 233 and 224 Squadrons).

So does anyone know where position LXOX 2543 was?
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Old 12th November 2019, 00:08
Darius Darius is offline
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Re: Questions About 21 June 1940 Attack on Scharnhorst

Hi,


some extracts from KTB of the SCHARNHORST about aircraft screening & attacks on 21.06.1940.


02.45 h 2 Me 110 in Sicht. E.S.-Austausch, bleiben beim Verband zur engen Sicherung.
04.34 h Die zur engen Sicherung beim Verband stehenden 2 Me 110 drehen ab.
07.55 h 2 Me 110 als Jagdschutz beim Verband.
08.25 h E.S.-Austausch mit eigener He 115.
09.05 h Die beiden Me 110 der engen sicherung im Osten außer Sicht gekommen.
09.15 h eingeht F.T. von Gruppe West, daß Jagdschutz erst ab 13.00 Uhr von Bergen bis 24.00 Uhr Hanstholm gestellt wird.
12.04 h Achteraus ein Flugzeug in Sicht. Aus dem Verhalten des Flugzeuges kann geschlossen werden, daß es sich um einen feindlichen Aufklärer handelt.
12.34 h Das Flugzeug ist wieder in Sicht. Es handelt sich um einen englischen Führungshalter.
13.14 h Achteraus 5 Flugzeuge in Sicht.
13.15 h Flugzeuge haben E.S. geschossen. Werden als Me 110 erkannt, die als Jagdschutz beim Verband bleiben.
13.18 h Achteraus 1 Flugboot in Sicht, wahrscheinlich Do 18.
13.28 h E.S.-Austausch mit gemeldeter Do 18. Flugboot umkreis das Schiff.
14.00 h Zu den beim Verband stehenden 5 Me 110 kommen 2 Me 109, die voraus Jagdschutz bilden.
15.00 h Qu. 2396 r.M. AN
15.22 h Eigenes Bordflugzeug von Osten kommend in Sicht. Bleibt beim Verband, fliegt U-Boot-Sicherung.
15.47 h Englischer Aufklärer an der Grenze der Reichweite wieder in Sicht, mit 10,5 cm beschossen[...]
15.50 h Die eigenen Jäger fliegen nach kurzer Zeit nach Bb. weg. Ablösung nicht zur Stelle.
16.00 h Position: Qu. 2917 l.m. AN
16.04 h "Erich Steinbrink" meldet 6 Flugzeuge an Bb. Kurz darauf werden 3 Flugzeuge an Bb.-Seite etwa 290° gesichtet und erkannt als angreifende Torpedoflugzeuge.
16.07 h Flugzeuge mit allen Flakwaffen beschossen. Alle 6 Flugzeuge werfen Torpedos. Einer zerschellt beim Aufschlag, mindestens zwei andere laufen auf "Scharnhorst" zu. Durch Ausweichbewegung diese Laufbahnen ausmenövriert, einer hiervon läuft ins Kielwasser des Schiffes.
16.12 h Feuer eingestellt. Ein Flugzeug stürzt brennend ins Wasser, ein zweiter Absturz wird beobachtet. Im Augenblick des Angriffes waren keine eigenen Jäger in der Nähe.
16.22 h Zwei eigene Jäger treffen ein.
16.31 h Erneuter Fliegeralarm! Hochangriff von etwa 6 Bombenflugzeugen.[...] Zwei Abstürze beobachtet. 2 Fallschirmabsprünge. Eigene Jäger gehen heran.
16.43 h "Kondor" meldet Flugzeuge voraus und kurz darauf, daß eigene Jäger hinter den englischen Flugzeugen sind.
16.50 h Bordflugzeug T3-FH gestartet.[...]
16.50 h Vorher soll Flugzeug versuchen den englischen Fühlungshalter (Sunderland) zu bekämpfen.
17.00 h Position: Qu 2945 l.o.
17.08 h "Fliegeralarm" Bb. voraus, Bomber in mittlerer Höhe. Feuer eröffnet. Einzelwurf großer Bomben.
17.14 h 3 eigene Jäger Bb. voraus in Sicht.
17.15 h He 115 voraus in Sicht. E.S. ausgetauscht. Optisch abgegeben: an Stb. Flugboot Fühlungshalter.
17.26 h Fliegeralarm! Feuer eröffnet auf 2 schwere Bomber (Höhe 2000 m). Bombenwurf. Drei Bomben hart an Bb.-Seite, eine an St.B.-Seite, kein Treffer.
17.28 h Meldung von "Kondor": an Bb. sind weitere Flugzeuge.
17.34 h 2 Flugzeuge achteraus abgeschossen, Jäger stoßen hinter den 7 nach Stb. achtern abfliegenden Flugzeugen nach.
18.05 h Beim Verband stehen an eigenen Flugzeugen: 10 Jäger Me 109, 1-2 He 111 und 1 Do 18 und wahrscheinlich noch 2 Bordflugzeuge.


Regards


Darius

Last edited by Darius; 12th November 2019 at 00:59.
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Old 12th November 2019, 00:53
SteveR SteveR is offline
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Re: Questions About 21 June 1940 Attack on Scharnhorst

Thank you very much, Darius! That definitely helps a bit.

I find the mention of torpedoes interesting as none were used to attack her that day (42 Squadron's Beauforts each carried two 500lb. SAP bombs, according to the ORB).

Thanks again!
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Old 12th November 2019, 01:11
Darius Darius is offline
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Re: Questions About 21 June 1940 Attack on Scharnhorst

Hi,

I don´t quote the full data from Admirality War Diary, but only this hint:

Quote:
6 Swordfish carrying torpedoes left Hatston 1245/21. Objective enemy battle cruiser and destroyers reported in aircraft 1120/21. Track to 59:17 N., 4:50 E. then search northwards for 40 miles, returning to Sumburgh (A.C.O.S., 1300/21).
Regards

Darius
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Old 12th November 2019, 03:20
SteveR SteveR is offline
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Re: Questions About 21 June 1940 Attack on Scharnhorst

Thanks again, Darius!

I'm under the impression that the Swordfish didn't find/attack Scharnhorst - when I wrote about no torpedoes used against her that day I was thinking that no torpedo-armed aircraft had found and attacked her (I should have made that clear).

From reading through the ORBs I find that 224 Squadron's Hudsons, 233 Squadron's Hudsons, and 42 Squadron's Beauforts were all armed with two 500lb. SAP bombs.

Have I missed a torpedo attack that was made? (I know far less about the FAA as AFAIK their ORBs haven't been digitized.)
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Old 12th November 2019, 05:08
SteveR SteveR is offline
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Re: Questions About 21 June 1940 Attack on Scharnhorst

Yes, definitely my faulty memory! Found details of the Swordfish attack by 821 and 823 Squadrons in Brian Cull's Flying Sailors At War, p. 162.

He puts their attack at 1500 hours, with 2 losses to AA fire. 42 Squadron's attack (9 Beauforts) is listed at 1630 hours, so 224 & 233 Squadrons must have attacked 1615-1630 hours (approximately speaking).

All of this fits very nicely with Scharnhorst's KTB.

Thanks yet again Darius!

Last edited by SteveR; 12th November 2019 at 05:34. Reason: Times
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Old 12th November 2019, 15:05
RSwank RSwank is offline
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Re: Questions About 21 June 1940 Attack on Scharnhorst

A some questions on the mapping system used. This is the grid map being used:
https://anjns.home.xs4all.nl/subsim/kmgridlarge.jpg and all coordinates are in the AN section of the map.

This link gives a “translation” of the coordinates, e.g. AN2396 is a square ( Quadrat) roughly 6 by 6 nautical miles with center at 60 09 00 N and 04 00 00 E:
http://www.navalgrid.com/find/square/an2396

I guess “Qu” refers to Quadrat. What are the other abbreviations ( r.M., l.m., l.o. )?
e.g., rechts, links ?

Last edited by RSwank; 17th November 2019 at 18:18.
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Old 12th November 2019, 17:46
SteveR SteveR is offline
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Re: Questions About 21 June 1940 Attack on Scharnhorst

Thank you very much, RSwank! Both links are very helpful!

No idea on the other abbreviations.
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Old 12th November 2019, 22:37
Darius Darius is offline
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Re: Questions About 21 June 1940 Attack on Scharnhorst

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSwank View Post

I guess “Qu” refers to Quadrat. What are the other abbreviations ( r.M., l.m., l.o. )?
e.g., rechts, links ?
Yes, has to be like you startetd and describes more exectlx the position in a Quadrat:
L = links / linke/r; R = rechts / rechte/r; M = Mitte; O = oben


Regards

Darius
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Old 13th November 2019, 03:03
RSwank RSwank is offline
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Re: Questions About 21 June 1940 Attack on Scharnhorst

So assuming they continue the method of dividing larger "squares" in 9 sub-squares (in a 3x3 grid, within the AN2396 square, (which is 6 by 6 nautical miles), they are describing the nine 2x2 nautical mile sub-squares. English versions might be something like --- right upper (or top) , right middle (or center), and right bottom (or lower) for the 3 sub-squares on the right. The 3 center sub-squares would be something like middle top (or upper), middle center (or middle) and middle bottom (or lower). The left sub-squares would follow in similar fashion.
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