Jewish airmen in WWII

[G. Warrener]

May I turn the question around?

Insofar as the most recent anti-semitic excesses of the European history have been caused by German heathen or various national Catholic/Protestant or inspired/misled Soviet fanatics... what does it really matter what a WW2 pilot believed in?

Rudel?
Townsend?
Bader?
Slaski?
Galland?

etc.

you climb into your aeroplane and avoid being blasted to smithereens - whilst attempting to do the same to others.

We who are not so challenged - respect those who were. Some fought for the 'wrong' side - some fought fought for the "good guys". Most died - some survived.

Unfortunately 60 years on - I'm not too sure that we all agree who the good guys were.....

For me Jews are good guys.....

Graham

[BRinder]

"For me Jews are good guys....."

Let Graham's comment be the end of this pointless discussion.

Bob Rinder

[Graham Boak]

Hang on a moment......it may seem a pointless discussion to some, but I have learned a little about European naming conventions, so I treat it as a small positive.

Is there a suggestion in the last two posts that there is something anti-semitic about my postings? (Let others speak for themselves.) I deny it.

Given that the entire struggle was about the Nazi ideology, and the treatment of Jews was an intrinsic part of that, then any Jewish airman was risking (in the event of capture) rather more than the average Protestant or Catholic, and also could be considered as having rather more reason to be involved. It would be grossly unfair to them to consider their religion as minor a point as the difference between (say) Free Baptist and Episcopelian. Being a Jew was important in WW2 whereas being a Wee Free or Methodist wasn't.

Personally, I have no problems with deciding who was in the right. Casting doubt over that is rather more worrying, even despicable, than queries into the ethnic/religious composition of the participants.

[Franek Grabowski]

Graham
Let me remind you that most recent antisemitic incidents took place in France not long ago. They were so strong, Israelis suggested best choice is to leave the country. France is neither German, Soviet or religious country. Just aside.
Anyway, yes, I think religion is important, see the recent discussions about euroconstitution for example. Religion was also used as an argument in case of certain ace called Moelders. I do not mention national issues, which still cause white hot discussions.
You ask if it is important what pilots believed in. Yes it is. It is because they are treated like heroes. I simply cannot accept a view of 'decent people and brave soldiers' like Rudel or Galland having in mind German behaviour here in Poland. They knew perfectly well, what is going here but it did not influence them in any way. The only difference between Rudel and Galland is that the latter turned views after the war and created himself as a great oppositionist.
I do not want to generalise, therefore I reply on those two particular airmen. But I have a general question for your statement about Jews being good guys. Are Jews fighting in German forces during WWII good guys? Are Jews fighting in the Red Army good guys? Are Jews who deserted from the Polish army in Palestine and started terroristic attacks on British good guys too? I think it is too complicated for such a general statement.
Finally, on the background of my question. Over last few years I have seen several publications on the subject but mostly sloppy and fragmentary. Seeing that a lot of this is some sort of wishful thinking I just wanted to learn something new. I see my hopes were in vain, however.

[G. Warrener]

Hello

Well keeping it within the WW2 framework of the forum - any Jew who fought for the allies, had made the right choice. A Jew (who still could claim to be one) who then fought for the Germans (Nazis) is for me not a good guy.

But as the whole history of Jews in Europe over the last 2000 years is a matter of survival in hostile environments against all the odds - then it would be wrong of me to judge individual choices. Poles also fought for the Soviets and for the Germans - many were impressed - some volunteered. Who can judge each individual decision made?

Still the question evidences a remnant of non-identification with Jews. A B17 crew comprising of Jew, Catholic, Protestant, Baptist is 1st and foremost a B17 crew.

I may admire the skills of fighter pilots etc. I do not find the 'views' of Rudel acceptable. Pilots may be personal heroes - experts, patriots and very very brave - but they are only human and have a share of all the failings which may be expected of the species. Plenty of allied pilots express views in old age which are discordant with the cause for which they fought in their youth.

There are Kowalskis in Germany and in the USA - only a small percentage would after 7 or 8 generations still think of themselves as Polish... But a Jew was always made to feel different - even when higly integrated into society - such as in France or Germany in the early 20th century. Wilhelm Frankl WW1 German ace was a Jew - so was Edmund Rumpler - of Rumpler Taube fame.

Jewish life in Poland from 18th to 20th centuries was always separate from mainstream Polish society.

So a Jew was fighting for survival always - whatever the uniform. Little has changed. Whatever they do - is wrong in the eyes of some.

Graham W

[Franek Grabowski]

Graham
Well, but should we consider Soviets as Allies? How about Jews serving in quite numbers in such forces like NKVD? For me they were not good guys. But it is not important for me if they were good or not, but if they were at all.
Then we have the question if we should consider Jews as a nation without country or as a religion. As you rightly pointed out, they have lived for about 2000 years in hostile environment and kept their integrity. It is also a fact that the hostility was in their national interest as it disallowed to assimilate. Otherwise they would dissapear as many other nations with perhaps a name distinguishing their origin, just like mentioned Kowalskis.
I do not want to judge their deeds, it often was not a matter of choice. As you mentioned, Poles served both in Soviet and German armies but those doing this willingly were a marigin. Great bulk of them were drafted and nobody asked their opinion. But it must be noted here, that more Poles - German deserters - joined the army in the west than were evacuated from the SU! This says a lot about their feelings and their loyalty.
I have no problem with Jews deserting from the Polish army in Palestine. I understand pretty well that they considered themselves a separate nation and wanted own country. The only thing that bothers me is why they did not do that after the war. Their choice anyway.
In the effect, number of Jews in Polish army (and aviation) was not very significant or rather mariginal. On the other hand there were several Jewish volunteers that chose to serve in Polish army. For example there were two Jewes, one from Argentina and one from the US flying with 304 Sqn. The latter had a chance to be transferred to USAAF but did not do that.
And all I want to know is how the situation was in other air forces. I still find it weird that nobody can say there were hundreds or thousand in XAF, famous ones being Y and Z.

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Graham
Let me remind you that most recent antisemitic incidents took place in France not long ago. They were so strong, Israelis suggested best choice is to leave the country. France is neither German, Soviet or religious country. .

Anti-Semitism is not an easy subject, but demographic shifts in Europe have made it difficult to point towards a single culprit. Anti-Semitism is strong especially with Islamic immigrants.

So when a French youth of North African decent attacks a jew, is it french or islamic anti-semitism?

The global community has made easy black and white world views untenable.

So a Swastika on a Jewish grave in Germany might just as well have originated from a Turkish migrant youth as a Neo-Nazi.

[Graham Boak]

Surely this is largely a matter of integration and tolerance in differing societies, with differences between western and Eastern Europe, and protestant or catholic nations, and democratic or autocratic societies.

There is no separate listings of, and publicity given to, Jews in the RAF because it mattered little to the society at the time. This is not to say that examples of intolerance and anti-semitism cannot be found in Britain of that period, but little more than that directed at other sectarian groups. I could quote the hatred between protestants and catholics in Glasgow. Other than at the time for Church parade, Jews would not stand out as a distinctive group (and even then would probably be outnumbered by other "non-conformists"). Individual examples come to mind: the electronic technician on the Bruneval raid; at least one South African ace; a Beaufighter pilot from Canada. This is about what I would expect from random sampling of any minority.

There is the additional factor that, as in many nations, the British military recruited their officers from a restricted strata of society, especially in peacetime. Some prejudice is probably inevitable in such situations.

After all, how many Methodists were there in the Royal Air Force?

[G. Warrener]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

I still find it weird that nobody can say there were hundreds or thousand in XAF, famous ones being Y and Z.

Well there was "Sos" Cohen – or Lionel Frederick William Cohen DSO. MC. DFC. for a start. Flying with Coastal Command as a rear gunner in his sixties.

If you want I can search out all the Jewish war graves at Rheinbeg & Reichswald cemeteries.

BUT...................

Still I am unconfortable with the weighting of this thread.

I do not care if an allied airman was Jewish, Atheist, Christian (Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Quaker, Methodist, Baptist, Greek-Orthodox, Mormon, Dutch Reformed, etc) or Buddhist (Burmese Tiffy pilots) or even Islamic (i.e Egyptian Gladiator pilots) or the brave Sikhs in their Vultee Vengeances.

Maybe there were even Christians in the Japanese forces.....

If one person is capable of killing another inspired by political dogma – then why do you choose to emphasize Jews in the NKVD rather than Soviet atheists in the NKVD?

OK I do accept that Poland was always the victim of aggression, rather than aggressor (excepting little bits of Czech territory in the late 1930s) The extremes of the Shoah took place on Polish soil – but the prime-movers were German

But I am disturbed the underlining of Jews in the Red Army or Jews who defected from the Polish Forces in the Middle East.

Look at events in post war Poland – even statements from the famous and otherwise quite admirable Solidarity president from Gdansk. The moment a Jew achieves any position – he becomes a target, even a ‘threat’

It is a European phobia, even now an Arabic phobia – but I refuse to have any part in it.

The ramp at Oswiecim is the lowest common denominator.

Some wanted to see all Jews on the ramp – some merely want to know how many Jews belonged to organisation X

I may be too suspiscious – but it does spook me

Graham

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

I still find it weird that nobody can say there were hundreds or thousand in XAF, famous ones being Y and Z.

Like so many questions it will probably be solved by a visit to the archives.

If Rigg can find these figures for the German Armed Forces, it can only be easier for the majority of other combattants*.

According to Rigg p. 66

1914-18
Germany
100.000 soldiers
3.200 officers
12.000 casualties

Austro-Hungarian
300.000 soldiers
n/a officers
25.000 casualties

According to Rigg's research (table 5 p.64) there was a surprisingly high number of Jews and Mischlinge who served in the Wehrmacht.

97 Jews
967 Half Jews
607 Quarter Jews
1671 Total

5 Jews served with the Waffen-SS

1 Jewish Admiral
3 Half-Jewish Admirals
11 Half Jewish Generals!!

To name but a few of his figures.

An interesting book that anyone with an interest in this subject should have read.


*Not certain but I think I have seen similar religion tables for other armed forces.